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  1. #3736
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    The fact you think these two things are the same question is probably part of your problem.
    No the fact that you are making an argument that nobody you are arguing with actually ever cared about is part of the problem. The people you're talking to are making the case that Biden is not a progressive, has a long track record and history of unprogressive policies, statements and intentions throughout his career, and therefore is not to be viewed as a progressive.

    You are trying to counter that by saying he did x, y and z thing in his career and therefore has been a progressive. ]

    It's not a compelling argument and doesn't address the principle concern. You're just trying to reframe the circumstance so it's easier for you to win so Biden can be viewed in a more palatable light to progressives. The problem is you have to distory their primary concerns into something they aren't to get there. So by the time you got to your conclsuion, everyone ceased to care.

    By the time your argument circled back to "Biden banned assault weapons and signed a bill on climate change so he has done progressive things" you already stretched it so think to find a win that your case lost meaning.

    I'm not even that opposed to voting for Biden if I really have to, though I think he's far and away the worst of the major contenders. But yeah it's beyond disengenous to pretend he is a progressive and that he won't have problems with those voters if he gets the nom. He will, he is deeply disliked in those circles, and we all cheered Harris on if for nothing else that it made him less likely to win, because we'd rather not have to play the "lets hold our nose game".

  2. #3737
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Looking at what's in blue, do you honestly think that said take isn't oversimplifying things quite a bit?

    Do you think that everyone he would be saying that to will actually feel that they have anything like the "Wonderful, Best Coverage In The World..."?
    How many batshit crazy things did Trump say last time that people bought into? Of course it's ridiculously untrue, that doesn't mean it won't work!

  3. #3738
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    I ask for actual legislation from Sanders and I get an attack on another Democrat in response.

    I'd say never change but that would be far too redundant.
    It's not an attack.

    It is a simple statement about how Biden actually conducted himself while in office.

    If you don't think that voters(primary and general) will factor in more than just a legislative record in while they weigh if the will support someone or not, you are more optimistic than I am.

    That said, I do know that Sanders doesn't have that particular weakness.

  4. #3739
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    It's not an attack.
    It's not actual progressive legislation proposed and passed by Sanders and other "progressives" is what it's not.

  5. #3740
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    How many batshit crazy things did Trump say last time that people bought into? Of course it's ridiculously untrue, that doesn't mean it won't work!
    While I'd agree that it has the potential to work, I'm not as certain as you seem to be that it will.

    That particular issue doesn't feel as cleanly cut, to me.

  6. #3741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Does anyone think Trump is going to bring up busing? Do you think he's going to suggest that he will as President enact policies to bring kids from majority-white neighborhoods outside of their zoned schools to go into majority-minority neighborhood schools, whether the parents are on-board or not?
    Trump brings up lots of stuff, he certainly brought up the crime bill:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.2e36ee7e2298

    Trump is a shameless opportunist, he will bring up anything he think will make him look good. Trump will bring up ''forced busing'' simply to make Biden look bad to Africans Americans, there would be no policy agenda to it, it would just to make him look good and Biden look bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    A big reason Kerry and Hillary lost is that it was a bad year for their partiesy. Incumbent Presidents do well when seeking reelection. Then parties tend to lose support from voters, and get kicked out after two terms.

    On the flipside, Republicans will now look at the losses of Dole, McCain and Romney and say that decent qualified men lose presidential elections, while the ideal candidate is someone who isn't qualified, followed rich parents into their industry, doesn't have a deep understanding of politics, and is willing to work with shameless liars on the campaign team.
    That's true, which is a big reason why I think Trump has a lot of advantages here, Incumbency is an advantage. No one should assume that defeating Trump would be easy.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 06-29-2019 at 09:04 PM.

  7. #3742
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    No the fact that you are making an argument that nobody you are arguing with actually ever cared about is part of the problem. The people you're talking to are making the case that Biden is not a progressive, has a long track record and history of unprogressive policies, statements and intentions throughout his career, and therefore is not to be viewed as a progressive.
    Since you like to play the game of semantics, I'll point out that saying he's "not progressive" is very different than saying "he's not progressive enough for me".

    The former is plainly false, or at least has been at times. It's also playing a subjective purity game. The latter can be made with a compelling case based on what you value. I'd encourage you to stick with doing the latter. It has merit and it's fair.

  8. #3743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    See, you're missing the point. People don't like the idea of losing their coverage, no matter what promises are made about replacing it. This is a political issue as old as time. You can promise until you're blue in the face, people won't hear that part of it. They'll just hear Trump pound into the ground that you're going to lose your "wonderful, best coverage in the world" health insurance. Again, fair or not.

    Trying to hide behind there being some form of private insurance still lingering in the wake is irrelevant to this problem. And it IS a problem for Bernie. To his credit, I thought he answered it well in the Fox Town Hall. He should keep saying that! (You know: you change it all the time with your work. Or if you change jobs. It's a bit of a myth that private insurance stays unchanged)
    No I'm not. You're hypthotheiss relies on the Republican argument being effective and Democrats not being able to counter a disingenous Republican argument. If they can't do that on most issues, then yeah they will lose the election anyways and it's futile.

    I just find it amusing that several times today the counter has been a Republican talking point. I could say the same thing about nearly every Democratic policy. "The Republicans wills say this, and fair or not that's what the public will think"

  9. #3744
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    While I'd agree that it has the potential to work, I'm not as certain as you seem to be that it will.

    That particular issue doesn't feel as cleanly cut, to me.
    It's based on fear. Republicans are pretty good at using obnoxious quips like that to great effect.

  10. #3745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Since you like to play the game of semantics, I'll point out that saying he's "not progressive" is very different than saying "he's not progressive enough for me".

    The former is plainly false, or at least has been at times. It's also playing a subjective purity game. The latter can be made with a compelling case based on what you value. I'd encourage you to stick with doing the latter. It has merit and it's fair.
    1. It's not semantics. You can have a good faith discussion on who is and isn't a progressive. You listing out a handful of things he's done that could be viewed as somewhat progressive doesn't counter the bulk of his career. It's a bad faith argument.

    2. The former isn't false. He's not a progressive.

    3. Nice way to avoid the question

  11. #3746

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Trump brings up lots of stuff, he certainly brought up the crime bill:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.2e36ee7e2298

    Trump is a shameless opportunist, he will bring up anything he think will make him look good. Trump will bring up ''forced busing'' simply to make Biden look bad to Africans Americans, there would be no policy agenda to it, it would just to make him look good and Biden look bad.
    In the same comments, Trump claimed that he fixed the problems of the 1994 crime bill. I'd also guess he'll have a different strategy about what he'll talk about during the general election than he would during the Democratic primary when there are different vulnerabilities.

    I'm also really curious what kind of policy President Trump would offer that is similar to mandatory busing. That probably wouldn't go over well with his base.

  12. #3747
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    No I'm not. You're hypthotheiss relies on the Republican argument being effective and Democrats not being able to counter a disingenous Republican argument. If they can't do that on most issues, then yeah they will lose the election anyways and it's futile.

    I just find it amusing that several times today the counter has been a Republican talking point. I could say the same thing about nearly every Democratic policy. "The Republicans wills say this, and fair or not that's what the public will think"
    You should try and separate from your ideology a bit then on the practicality of it. Which argument do you think, based on history and the elements of the battle ground, are more persuasive? Fear about change or aspirational appeals?

    Call me a cynic but I know which one I'd bet on. I hope I'm wrong. Either way, this is where the battle happens. Not on generic polls about policies as you cited before.

  13. #3748
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    It's based on fear. Republicans are pretty good at using obnoxious quips like that to great effect.
    You're still setting aside that there will be the individual realities of people/family insurance plans and how they actually feel about them.

    In the same way that it was an issue for Dems in 2016, I have my personal doubts about Trump just being able to counter that particular reality with bit. Quite a few others? Sure. Selling folks on that they have great plans if they actually don't? Feels like a far harder sell.

  14. #3749
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    1. It's not semantics. You can have a good faith discussion on who is and isn't a progressive.
    You didn't understand what I posted. Best to move on.

    Your question is a foolish road to go down, it's best if that kind of question is realized for its toxicity and discarded by all. I hope you do the same. If you'd like to ask about "progressive enough" and see the error of your first question, I'd gladly answer.

  15. #3750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    You should try and separate from your ideology a bit then on the practicality of it. Which argument do you think, based on history and the elements of the battle ground, are more persuasive? Fear about change or aspirational appeals?

    Call me a cynic but I know which one I'd bet on. I hope I'm wrong. Either way, this is where the battle happens. Not on generic polls about policies as you cited before.
    Again silly argument. Do you think any Democrat who wins isn't going to be facing a Republican counter argument based around fear on change? They did it with Obama, they did it with Clinton. That's their strategy. You either make the compelling counter argument and win or you don't and lose. You're making a massive assumption that both a Sanders/Warren/Harris canidacy will face more resistance than a Biden one. They will do the same fearmongering and label Biden a Socialist as they labled Obama one.

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