All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Just a quick FYI for the "Illinois"/"Illinois Adjacent" folks...

- https://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...adi-story.html

Glad I’m not in Illinois right now

[Mister Mets]

I say it's nonsense to bother with useless rhetoric while children are sleeping on concrete floors under our watch.

I'm not going to sit here and try to solve the entire immigration crisis on a message board, especially without the appropriate data.

What I am going to do is continue to point out that your party is the primary reason for this "crisis" -- like so many others -- and so long as you dodge that fact it doesn't make sense to even bother trying to engage with you on any other level.

I'm asking this to figure out where you coming from? What kind of appropriate data are you looking for before you're willing to offer any opinions on solutions?

When you were mentioning doctors and independent experts before is that mainly in the context of figuring out what's going on in the migrant detention centers, and how to avoid that problem in the future, or is that relevant to determining immigration policy (IE- how much do people benefit from being able to seek asylum in the US)?

In the era of trump, you're likely to be killed by white conservative terrorism than an immigrant.

A list of trump's 'good people':

John T. Earnest
San Diego
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...509162631.html

Stephen Paddock
LV
http://www.newsweek.com/las-vegas-gu...-market-701597

Nikolas Cruz
Parkland
https://www.thedailybeast.com/nikola...up-leader-says

James Alex Field
Charlottesville

Devin Patrick Kelley
Sutherland Springs
His Facebook caption is "Deplorable Deb Reporting from my Basket".

Lance Davis
http://www.newsweek.com/former-milo-...his-dad-692950

Jeremy Christian
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...an_facebo.html

Patrick Stein
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/patrick...t-proceedings/

https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive...233458205.html

Dimitrios Pagourtzis
https://www.thedailybeast.com/dimitr...ect?yptr=yahoo

Robert Bowers
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rs/1791727002/

I don't think the evidence you link suggests people are more likely to be killed by far-right terrorists than immigrants, partly because the number of far-right terrorists is lower than the number of immigrants, and because the causes of death wouldn't be limited to terrorism (a drunk driving immigrant would count for the purposes of the comparison; technically, so would a drunk-driving terrorist.)

This also wouldn't address what happens if there's a major change in immigration policy. That's the type of thing that could really change the statistics on crime and immigration.

It's also not a defense of any particular immigration policy. The degree to which we should allow millions over the border isn't connected to whether some white people are scum.

Regarding, Trump's comments he did explicitly say that white nationalists should be condemned totally in his "very fine people" speech.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...sides-remarks/

Exactly. If the DNC has any agenda at all, it is simply to nominate the most establishment candidate available. In 2016 that candidate was Hillary Clinton. Right now, that candidate is probably Joe Biden. But that doesn't mean that they have a grudge against any specific candidate, Bernie Sanders or anyone else. And each candidate should know all of this going in and figure out a way to work around it if they're not willing to become more of an establishment candidate.

There are two potential counterarguments.

1. The DNC should do nothing to put their thumb on the scales. Hell, look at the RNC and Trump. They let the voters go with that choice, and ultimately won a narrow election, while the DNC's interference in favor of Hillary hurt their efforts at unity.

2. A Bernie supporter could also believe that the DNC's obligation is to recognize the inherent superiority of Bernie Sander's campaign, and work to help him out because he is so much better than an establishment choice.

[aja_christopher]

I'm asking this to figure out where you coming from? What kind of appropriate data are you looking for before you're willing to offer any opinions on solutions?

And I'm telling you that's something best left to independent experts who already have the actual data and know the laws regarding immigration and -- likewise -- there's no point in me offering "opinions" on "solutions" when I know the Republican goal isn't to solve the immigration "crisis" but instead to protect white hegemony in America. No matter what we say here we both know Republicans wouldn't implement anything that I might suggest, not only because of the potential "costs" but likewise because it wouldn't "deter" brown and black people from seeking asylum in America.

You keep trying to push me to discuss hypotheticals that serve no real purpose in the bigger picture, which is completely useless in my opinion. If you want to sit here and "debate" the best way to take care of the immigration issue in the theoretical "future" then it's fine if you see fit to waste your time in that way, but I don't since my main concern is the inhumanitarian manner in which the Republicans are currently treating said immigrants.

The fact that you can't even discuss addressing that first speaks volumes because you know it means denouncing your party's racism and cruelty directly.

You want to sit here and talk about "costs" while people can't even get in to see what's going on in these camps -- honestly, Mets, just drop it because as others have pointed out, it just shows your lack of empathy when it comes to other human beings, including innocent children.

My "solution" is to vote the Republicans out of office since they've already repeatedly proved that they don't believe in compromise, much less basic human decency, and every post you make about "costs" while children are being separated from their families and sleeping on floors just confirms the latter.

[Mister Mets]

And I'm telling you that's something best left to independent experts who already have the actual data and know the laws regarding immigration and -- likewise -- there's no point in me offering "opinions" on "solutions" when I know the Republican goal isn't to solve the immigration "crisis" but instead to protect white hegemony in America. No matter what we say here we both know Republicans wouldn't implement anything that I might suggest, not only because of the potential "costs" but likewise because it wouldn't "deter" brown and black people from seeking asylum in America.

You keep trying to push me to discuss hypotheticals that serve no real purpose in the bigger picture, which is completely useless in my opinion. If you want to sit here and "debate" the best way to take care of the immigration issue in the theoretical "future" then it's fine if you see fit to waste your time in that way, but I don't since my main concern is the inhumanitarian manner in which the Republicans are currently treating said immigrants.

The fact that you can't even discuss addressing that first speaks volumes because you know it means denouncing your party's racism and cruelty directly.

You want to sit here and talk about "costs" while people can't even get in to see what's going on in these camps -- honestly, Mets, just drop it because as others have pointed out, it just shows your lack of empathy when it comes to other human beings, including innocent children.

My "solution" is to vote the Republicans out of office since they've already repeatedly proved that they don't believe in compromise, much less basic human decency, and every post you make about "costs" while children are being separated from their families and sleeping on floors just confirms the latter.

The problem with only addressing the current conditions in the camps is that we're going to have more people coming in, which is going to exacerbate the problems caused by the centers not being built to handle this many people. It's not empathetic to ignore that problem.

So we do also need to tackle the other questions. In addition, politicians are going to have to handle the more encompassing questions soon, so as people are discussing politics we should work to develop our understanding on the topic (if you think whoever is elected President in 2020 is going to try to address this question, it can be important for people donating to campaigns to know that the candidates have some kind of idea of what they'll do when that happens.) The views on the larger questions are also going to inform how we currently handle detained migrants.

I'm still not entirely sure you want to leave to independent experts.

Is it...
A) The question of how to best treat migrants when they're in the US. This would include investigations into what happened in the centers.
B) The questions of the larger asylum process. This would include the treatment of asylum seekers in the US, as well as clarifying and potentially revising the criteria for who qualifies for asylum.
C) The larger questions that fall in the umbrella of immigration reform. This includes the questions of who to deport, how to assimilate undocumented immigrants, revisions of criteria in the asylum process, questions of where asylum seekers wait to learn the decision, and the larger immigration question of who gets to come to the US.
D) Something else entirely. If so, what?

Whatever it is that you want the experts to determine, what is the criteria for selecting the experts? Who gets to pick them? What standards are they using for their ultimate goal?

As for the point that Republicans don't believe in compromise on immigration, this is kinda messy in that we don't know what limiting principle Democrats want. In addition, a good chunk of the country (31 percent) wants a decrease in the number of legal immigrants. A majority of Democrats are against any kind of increase. A lot can count as compromise in that context.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1660/immigration.aspx

[aja_christopher]

The problem with only addressing the current conditions in the camps is that we're going to have more people coming in

i didn't say "only" address the current conditions in the camp -- I said address the basic human needs of those people first instead of trying to present hypotheticals for what to do afterwards. Nothing you are saying beyond that matters to me, especially when there are parents and children involved.

Mets -- stop trying to force people to "debate" (i.e. come up with "solutions") with you when you know many of us feel you often have a very loose take on "facts" and, more importantly, completely disagree with your priorities.

Just accept that my solution is to vote the obstructionist Republican party out of office and move on.



Here's what McConnell said after the last Republican president drove us into needless war and recession -- no matter what you say here, this sums up the Republican party's view towards "compromise" in our government, especially when it comes to people of color.

[worstblogever]

Republicans "governance" these days is a combination of three things:

1) Maintain the status quo where a few rich white men keep getting richer while everyone else works harder than they should have to just to survive.
2) Enact policies to try to establish and maintain control as a minority. Under no circumstance, let anyone else actually govern.
3) Make sure people that aren't "us" are suffering. While we know "us" is the few white rich people, we can snooker poor whites into thinking they're actually still invited to the party.

This is the Atwater Strategy playing out in real time, with no consideration for what happens five days from now, let alone five years or five decades from now.

[Theleviathan]

Helluva read.

[worstblogever]

There are two stories regarding Border Patrol today... the first being that several members kept a jolly Facebook group with racist messages, gleeful comments about the death of migrants, and "memes" that are actually just doctored images of President Trump sexually assaulting Democratic Congresswomen who just so happen to be Hispanic. Nothing like laughing about the death and rape of immigrants to make you think these guys have no business in working at the border...

The second story... Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez managed to speak with some detainees at a detention facility, and during the tour, even with guards supposedly on their "best behavior" because members of Congress were moving through... were forcing female detainees without access to water from any other source to drink out of a toilet. Some of the women being held confessed that guards like to bust in at all hours to terrorize them and scream things at them like they're "whores".

But don't you call these concentration camps...

[Robotman]

Republicans "governance" these days is a combination of three things:

1) Maintain the status quo where a few rich white men keep getting richer while everyone else works harder than they should have to just to survive.
2) Enact policies to try to establish and maintain control as a minority. Under no circumstance, let anyone else actually govern.
3) Make sure people that aren't "us" are suffering. While we know "us" is the few white rich people, we can snooker poor whites into thinking they're actually still invited to the party.

This is the Atwater Strategy playing out in real time, with no consideration for what happens five days from now, let alone five years or five decades from now.

This is all true but there’s also the religious right. Most of them truly believe their bullshit. They really want Jesus to return and bring on Armageddon. Which is terrifying because it means they’ll never care about climate change and social issues because “god will sort it all out.” It’s like a global death cult anxiously awaiting the end times.

[worstblogever]

This is all true but there’s also the religious right. Most of them truly believe their bullshit. They really want Jesus to return and bring on Armageddon. Which is terrifying because it means they’ll never care about climate change and social issues because “god will sort it all out.” It’s like a global death cult anxiously awaiting the end times.

I think the low-level Fundies believe it. The higher-ups are the ones preaching about Donald Trump as some embodiment of biblical values are full of s***, and know they're marketing fertilizer to the masses as an opiate.

Unless they're talking about mad king Herod, or maybe Ahab I guess. That would be the only way a statement like that would make sense.

[kidfresh512]

There are two stories regarding Border Patrol today... the first being that several members kept a jolly Facebook group with racist messages, gleeful comments about the death of migrants, and "memes" that are actually just doctored images of President Trump sexually assaulting Democratic Congresswomen who just so happen to be Hispanic. Nothing like laughing about the death and rape of immigrants to make you think these guys have no business in working at the border...

The second story... Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez managed to speak with some detainees at a detention facility, and during the tour, even with guards supposedly on their "best behavior" because members of Congress were moving through... were forcing female detainees without access to water from any other source to drink out of a toilet. Some of the women being held confessed that guards like to bust in at all hours to terrorize them and scream things at them like they're "whores".

But don't you call these concentration camps...

I hope there is an independent investigation on the facebook group claims. That is outrageous and absolutely scary if there is that rampant an ethical breach in the officers. I work at a freaking Oil company and we have to do ethics training. These guys have to protect our borders and work with asylum seekers. If they are really that ethically challenged and disgusting to be participating in those posts and comments they need to all be dealt with. I would say fired but the sheer amount in the group if accurate is half the total agents!

[Tendrin]

Hey, remember when people would suggest that ICE was totally okay and just doing their jobs because legalism? I do!

Abolish ICE.

[BeastieRunner]

That's what Blackrock and a couple others were doing.

I wonder if any of them are from those contractors?

[Malvolio]

i didn't say "only" address the current conditions in the camp -- I said address the basic human needs of those people first instead of trying to present hypotheticals for what to do afterwards. Nothing you are saying beyond that matters to me, especially when there are parents and children involved.

Mets -- stop trying to force people to "debate" (i.e. come up with "solutions") with you when you know many of us feel you often have a very loose take on "facts" and, more importantly, completely disagree with your priorities.

Just accept that my solution is to vote the obstructionist Republican party out of office and move on.



Here's what McConnell said after the last Republican president drove us into needless war and recession -- no matter what you say here, this sums up the Republican party's view towards "compromise" in our government, especially when it comes to people of color.

Their definition of compromise is "Sit down and shut up while the adults do their work."

[Kevinroc]

The latest Republican attack on American Health Care will begin oral arguments in front of the US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit in... about 8 days or so.