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  1. #4816
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    But not so significant that you'll actually address it when it's obvious.

    Or stop your politicians from using it to attempt to suppress the civil and voting rights of people of color -- including your fellow American citizens, like the ones you are actually discussing this topic with on this forum.

    I'll ask you -- where has civility gotten us with you in this discussion?

    Scratch that -- the real question is how does discussing this with you do anything to prevent your party from engaging in racist, fascist, criminal behavior?

    Realistically speaking, your opinion means little to nothing compared to the actual abuses being committed by your party, like denying children medical care.
    I live in a liberal district in New York City, so my Governor, Senators, Representative, State Senator, State Assemblyman and US Attorney General are Democrats. I am represented by a Republican member of the City Council. The President is obviously a Republican, although I didn't vote for him, and he didn't win my state's electoral votes either. I'll vote against him in the next primary as I did in the last, but my options are relatively limited in terms of stopping Republican politicians.

    If you want to talk about what you think is fascist or criminal behavior, that's fine. Your point that I don't talk about that stuff is that when it comes up in replies to my posts it tends to be changing the topic. Whatever you think of Russian collusion is unrelated to whether homeopathic medicine should be covered by national health insurance, declining life expectancy in the US, or immigration policy circa 2012.

    I'm here mainly to get a sense of what people who have different experiences and views than I do think, to develop my understanding and kind of stress-test what I'm thinking. You ask "how does discussing this with you do anything to prevent your party from engaging in racist, fascist, criminal behavior?" but if I wasn't participating in these discussions, it wouldn't have any effect on the Republican party.

    On the question of what civility has gotten you guys, that does require you guys to be particularly civil, which hasn't occurred.

    Quote Originally Posted by SquirrelMan View Post
    When people say that the accusation of racism was thrown out excessively in the past, it just means that it was used against cases of racism they find acceptable.
    This would require every claim of racism to be accurate, which just isn't the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kusanagi View Post
    I'm sure this has already been posted, but it needs reposting

    Kansas Senator Kris Kobach can't answer when asked if he'd support a racist

    That's where a large portion of the republican party is. If Trump burned a cross on the White House lawn, they'd say he was just expressing his religious freedoms and he had no knowledge of cross burnings historical significance, and it of course had nothing to do with racism.

    The whole "we'll he said they could come back so it isn't racist" implies that the USA isn't their home! Anything else stated is a pathetic attempt to dance around the subject.

    The question we have to deal with going forward is how many republicans are doing this because Trump's their guy and they don't want to earn his or his base's ire, and how many sincerely believe in what he says.
    The poll on Republican voters isn't about officeholders or wannabe officholders like Kobach. These are two different categories of people. Kobach and many officeholders are probably afraid of getting Trump's ire and the base's ire at a time when they want to close ranks.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  2. #4817
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    We bring it up because we're tired of you making excuses for your party abusing and mistreating immigrants and other people of color -- whether at the border or elsewhere.

    And yes we're more civil because I have the feeling if people could tell you exactly what they thought without fear of moderation, you'd realize just how "civil" we're being here in the face of someone openly defending white supremacy and attacks against non-white Americans by avoiding discussing said behavior or acting as if "both sides" are responsible for these problems.

    Telling people to be more "civil" while the party you support literally strips away civil rights is as tone-deaf as it gets -- as it stands, you should appreciate the tact being shown in the face of racism, fascism and blatant criminality.

    Honestly, you should consider it a blessing that some of us even will even attempt to discuss it with you "like adults" given how vile and malicious your party has become in it's attacks on democracy and people of color -- acting as if hypothetical "open borders" is why Republicans are justified in their racist, criminal behavior is pathetic, to be blunt, but not at all unexpected given your affiliation.

    You can't support the "party of Trump" and still expect people to believe you prefer civility, and even if you do, it's clear your party doesn't.
    I'm sure some of you guys are trying to restrain yourselves from saying what you really think, but that doesn't make you more civil.

    I can appreciate the idea that some of you guys think you're right, and don't need to be civil to the people who are wrong, because anyone who takes the wrong positions in politics is ultimately harming people (IE- the wrong policy will result in more deaths and more people failing to reach their potential.) IN addition, people who disagree may have radically different frames of reference which makes it harder to understand the other person.

    This isn't limited to Democrats VS Republicans, but the various intraparty arguments as well (Bernie Bros VS establishment; Libertarians VS socially conservative fiscal moderates) But if we're ever wrong about someone's motives and character, which occurs with incivility, we're not going to have an easier time persuading them.



    Quote Originally Posted by worstblogever View Post
    Are. You. F***ing. KIDDING ME?

    It was on every American news broadcast. It was fodder for all the late night talk shows, including the Daily Show. We discussed how racist it made the Tea Party look on this forum.

    Politico is hardly a left leaning bastion, and they ran the photo of the guy with the Confederate flag and labeled the story "Shutdown unleashes racism". And there were Tea Party members of Congress and Sarah Palin who all didn't want to act like the rally they planned at the World War II Memorial and marched over to the White House with wasn't their fault.

    It's a new feature of Republicans, it seems. When really racist things happen, just develop selected amnesia so you don't have to be responsible for what your party actually did.

    Incidentally, you might have caught that illness, Mets.
    I'm looking at the New York Times, and the main story about Larry Klayman is about an NSA hearing (they did mention his Koran comments at a rally, but not Cruz.)
    https://www.nytimes.com/search?query=Larry+Klayman

    If I could read the Times without knowing about a story it's relatively obscure.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  3. #4818

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I'm sure some of you guys are trying to restrain yourselves from saying what you really think, but that doesn't make you more civil.

    I can appreciate the idea that some of you guys think you're right, and don't need to be civil to the people who are wrong, because anyone who takes the wrong positions in politics is ultimately harming people (IE- the wrong policy will result in more deaths and more people failing to reach their potential.) IN addition, people who disagree may have radically different frames of reference which makes it harder to understand the other person.

    This isn't limited to Democrats VS Republicans, but the various intraparty arguments as well (Bernie Bros VS establishment; Libertarians VS socially conservative fiscal moderates) But if we're ever wrong about someone's motives and character, which occurs with incivility, we're not going to have an easier time persuading them.



    I'm looking at the New York Times, and the main story about Larry Klayman is about an NSA hearing (they did mention his Koran comments at a rally, but not Cruz.)
    https://www.nytimes.com/search?query=Larry+Klayman

    If I could read the Times without knowing about a story it's relatively obscure.
    So, because you searched "Larry Klayman" and found his name in one story, and it doesn't mention that he did that rally and Ted Cruz was there... even though I've found numerous other political coverage sites that noted it elsewhere...

    It's like it never happened.

    There's cognitive dissonance, and then there's willful ignorance.
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  4. #4819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I'm sure some of you guys are trying to restrain yourselves from saying what you really think, but that doesn't make you more civil..
    And I'm sure you're trying to do anything but talk about the racist, fascist, criminal behavior of your party, but that doesn't make your opinion on "civility" more relevant than reality -- you can't even talk about how Obama was treated by the Republicans or how they elected the "birther in chief" into office.

    Trying to grasp at a win on the grounds of "civility" while Trump is the leader of your party is ridiculous -- clean your own house first.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 07-19-2019 at 10:12 AM.

  5. #4820
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I'm sure some of you guys are trying to restrain yourselves from saying what you really think, but that doesn't make you more civil.
    Remember when civility was defined by your thoughts ? Oh wait it isnt.

    We're civil on the basis that we ignore your terrible attempts at misdirection, lies and goalpost shifting to a degree. Because on many other sites you'd of been banned LONG ago. Just because your not a screaming troll like some of the other "conservatives" that try posting here doesn't mean we're not aware of your ****.

  6. #4821
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The poll on Republican voters isn't about officeholders or wannabe officholders like Kobach. These are two different categories of people. Kobach and many officeholders are probably afraid of getting Trump's ire and the base's ire at a time when they want to close ranks.
    Close ranks and support a racist fuckwad in the Oval Office who's pushing the country ever closer to outright fascism? Do you have ANY idea how jawdropping insane that sounds? Clearly, testicle-challenged clowns like Kobach and all the rest have forgotten that their responsibility is to serve ALL the people, not just that segment of pea-brained, knuckledragging shitstains who've thrown in with the racist policies of a racist president. If those gutless cowards in the Republican party, in YOUR party had anything in the way of morality in them, they'd publicly disown and censure Trump for the bigotry and division he's fomenting, they'd put morals ahead of politics and bring YOUR party back from the brink. But, I guess they don't have the cojones for that, do they?
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  7. #4822
    Invincible Jersey Ninja Tami's Avatar
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    To every American, my question is, do you feel comfortable being critical of the political party you are affiliated with or with politicians and other members of your party?

    I get the feeling that Mets is giving the impression (correctly or not) that he is unwilling to be self-party critical. But to those who debate him, are you also willing to be self-party critical?

    I think we are all mature enough, or should be mature enough, to realize that no person or party is perfect.

    However, to downplay or ignore or deflect from what is going on with Trump and his administration is understandably perplexing and likely to draw the ire of many. Some Republicans are able to stand apart from the pack and speak freely and critically. Others seem to find it impossible to do so.

    Not all transgressions are equal, some are far worse than others.
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  8. #4823
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    To every American, my question is, do you feel comfortable being critical of the political party you are affiliated with or with politicians and other members of your party?

    I get the feeling that Mets is giving the impression (correctly or not) that he is unwilling to be self-party critical. But to those who debate him, are you also willing to be self-party critical?

    I think we are all mature enough, or should be mature enough, to realize that no person or party is perfect.

    However, to downplay or ignore or deflect from what is going on with Trump and his administration is understandably perplexing and likely to draw the ire of many. Some Republicans are able to stand apart from the pack and speak freely and critically. Others seem to find it impossible to do so.

    Not all transgressions are equal, some are far worse than others.
    I for one have no problem being critical of the party I support when times call for criticism. Hell, I already called Nancy Pelosi on the carpet this morning for letting 'The Squad' get under her skin, leaving her wide open for Trump to steer a tanker sized wedge through the gap and further the party's division with his racist comments which had been spurred by HER dislike of how AOC and company have conducted their business. Yes, neither party has been perfect, but I'm willing to make my voice heard when Dems screw up, however, from what I've seen, that's a bridge too far for the likes of Mets when it comes to being critical of the GOP.
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  9. #4824
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    On the question of what civility has gotten you guys, that does require you guys to be particularly civil, which hasn't occurred.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_Jr.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medgar_Evers

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Amadou_Diallo

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlo...lle_car_attack

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylann_Roof

    Yeah, civility seems to have worked out pretty swell.
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  10. #4825
    I am invenitable Jack Dracula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogwen View Post
    Hi, I'm french and I notice how it didn't take long to destroy both the US and the UK. Because let's be honest one second, the divide in the population of both countries is beyond repair!The right wing oligarchs did a very good job. I just now have to hope we will resist better in Europe
    Well, you've had Steve Bannon in your backyard stirring up far-right populist movements for the past year.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ight-in-europe

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/21/stev...elections.html

    He had direct involvement in both the 2016 U.S. Elections as well as the Brexit situation and seems commited to creating a world-wide right-wing nationalist dystopia.
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  11. #4826
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    To every American, my question is, do you feel comfortable being critical of the political party you are affiliated with or with politicians and other members of your party?

    I get the feeling that Mets is giving the impression (correctly or not) that he is unwilling to be self-party critical. But to those who debate him, are you also willing to be self-party critical?

    I think we are all mature enough, or should be mature enough, to realize that no person or party is perfect.

    However, to downplay or ignore or deflect from what is going on with Trump and his administration is understandably perplexing and likely to draw the ire of many. Some Republicans are able to stand apart from the pack and speak freely and critically. Others seem to find it impossible to do so.

    Not all transgressions are equal, some are far worse than others.
    I'm critical of everyone that tries to pull blatant BS. Check my history.
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  12. #4827
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    To every American, my question is, do you feel comfortable being critical of the political party you are affiliated with or with politicians and other members of your party?
    I'm not a Democrat but I saw plenty of them call out Obama for the drone strikes and for his refusal to prosecute Bush and Wall Street criminals -- for the most part, though, there's nothing really to criticize about the Democrats on the same scale as Republicans.

    They aren't promoting racism or denying climate change and they aren't running up record deficits or trying to prevent people from voting, much less protecting a criminal president.



    It's not a high bar to reach -- the Republicans are just that low with regards to leadership and morality.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 07-19-2019 at 10:32 AM.

  13. #4828
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    What exactly does civility entail these days anyway? Being polite, courteous, and considerate of the sensibilities of others sounds an awful lot like political correctness if you ask me...

    The bottom line is that conservatives want free rein to insult others, but can't stand it when someone dares to throw it back in their face. This is just what privilege does to people I suppose, most of us learn these lessons by age six, but if you have lived your whole life never getting called out for your nonsense, it must be pretty shocking when someone does hold you accountable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    To every American, my question is, do you feel comfortable being critical of the political party you are affiliated with or with politicians and other members of your party?

    I get the feeling that Mets is giving the impression (correctly or not) that he is unwilling to be self-party critical. But to those who debate him, are you also willing to be self-party critical?

    I think we are all mature enough, or should be mature enough, to realize that no person or party is perfect.

    However, to downplay or ignore or deflect from what is going on with Trump and his administration is understandably perplexing and likely to draw the ire of many. Some Republicans are able to stand apart from the pack and speak freely and critically. Others seem to find it impossible to do so.

    Not all transgressions are equal, some are far worse than others.
    Criticizing your own "tribe" is a necessary component of healthy discourse, but it has to be done reasonably and, most important, strategically. It's normal for many Democrats to be frustrated with the likes of Clinton and Pelosi, but if all you do is go after them without ever calling out the Republicans for far worse behavior, then you aren't exactly helping your own cause. And let's be clear here, this is a question that only really concerns Democrats because Republicans pretty much stand by their party no matter what. Even the Never Trumpers only criticized him for being out of line with what they considered to be mainstream conservatism, but when it became abundantly clear that Trump pretty much did stand for what the bulk of GOP voters wanted, they all fell in line and are fully committed to the MAGA cause.

    This is also reminiscent of how people of color are always held accountable for everything any member of their group does, like how Muslims are always forced to come out and condemn any terror attack as if simply sharing a religion means they all share responsibility for it. Denouncing heinous acts is of course something everyone can and should do, but it should be done on their own terms, not because they have to make a song and dance of it to prove their loyalty to white people.
    Last edited by PwrdOn; 07-19-2019 at 10:35 AM.

  14. #4829
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    What exactly does civility entail these days anyway? Being polite, courteous, and considerate of the sensibilities of others sounds an awful lot like political correctness if you ask me...

    The bottom line is that conservatives want free rein to insult others, but can't stand it when someone dares to throw it back in their face. This is just what privilege does to people I suppose, most of us learn these lessons by age six, but if you have lived your whole life never getting called out for your nonsense, it must be pretty shocking when someone does hold you accountable.
    Preach it.
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  15. #4830
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    British left winger here.

    I think the head of the labour party is a fucking idiot with terrible media savvy. Dude can't pick a side in the brexit debate and keeps getting embroiled in anti-semetism scandals despite rhe fact that jews are a non-entity in the UK.

    So yeah I can be critical of my party. Still better then Conservatives, Lib Dems and the other meaningless multitudes.

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