All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[BeastieRunner]

Called this being potentially important.



As John Harwood of CNBC summed it up.

Mueller told both groups today that it is up to Congress to act.

[aja_christopher]

See this is why I call you out for acting in bad faith when it comes to Sanders all the time. This has nothing to do with Sanders, it’s s position a more moderate person like Pelosi has taken, and I have consistently supported Pelosi as Speaker in the House on this board many times. There was no reason to bring up Sanders besides you having a bone to pick with him and trying to type anything you deem negative to him. It says a lot more about you.

Actually, it's more about you taking offense every time Sanders is brought up -- the point is that you shouldn't stop having "high hopes" (i.e. supporting him) just because it doesn't seem likely at this point that he will win the nomination.

The same could have been said for Obama in 2008 and Trump in 2016 -- people didn't lose "hope" just because their candidates looked unlikely to win the presidency, and the same goes for Mueller's testimony and Trump's impeachment.

If you want to be a cynic and ignore the historical significance of making sure this is all on public record (and not just in some report that the vast majority of Americans will read) then that's your prerogative, but it's not your place to dismiss the adaptability of the American voter based on your own bias, especially when Americans have shown themselves as highly unpredictable on such matters in the past.

I'll also add that if I really had a "bone to pick" with Sanders, I'd have brought up his recent "minimum wage" issues -- don't make enemies where there are none. I've already stated repeatedly that I'd have no problem with Sanders being the nominee, regardless of the fact that I question whether the average voter will support higher taxes.

But that's a question, not an answer, because it's possible that they would, regardless of past voting habits.

[BeastieRunner]

Nunes wants to clear Trump. Mueller pointed to what he said to Steward.

Welch established (as in the report) that Team Trump members, Manafort, Flynn, and others, committed conspiracy.

Mueller agreed.

Welch established while Mueller did not believe that this evidence was prosecutable, it was dangerous. He asked Mueller if this will be the new normal, asking for help from a hostile foreign power?

"I hope this is not the new normal but I fear it is."

[Mister Mets]

Mueller told both groups today that it is up to Congress to act.

Oh yeah. If he's saying he didn't consider the question of whether charges are merited, it's not an endorsement. It means the question is left up to others.

It just shows that lawyers are good at compartmentalization (IE- ideally they can take it seriously when a judge says that something should be disregarded.)

[BeastieRunner]

Maloney established that the decision to not subpoena the POTUS was due to having to fight it for years.

Mueller agreed it would be a long fight.

"The President's responses were not [as] useful as an in-person, under oath, interview."

Maloney established that Mueller did not interview the POTUS due to having an overwhelming wealth of evidence in the report to prove intent to obstruct justice by the POTUS.

Mueller agreed but said that time was the more pressing issue. He figured that movement one way or the other was clear in the report.

[BeastieRunner]

Maloney and Demings have gotten the clearest responses on if the report suggest obstruction.

Mueller said it's clear that it does.

(SIDE NOTE: That means Trump's written responses, under-oath, were lies.)

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Actually, it's more about you taking offense every time Sanders is brought up -- the point is that you shouldn't stop having "high hopes" (i.e. supporting him) just because it doesn't seem likely at this point that he will win the nomination.

The same could have been said for Obama in 2008 and Trump in 2016 -- people didn't lose "hope" just because their candidates looked unlikely to win the presidency, and the same goes for Mueller's testimony and Trump's impeachment.

If you want to be a cynic and ignore the historical significance of making sure this is all on public record (and not just in some report that the vast majority of Americans will read) then that's your prerogative, but it's not your place to dismiss the adaptability of the American voter based on your own bias, especially when Americans have shown themselves as highly unpredictable on such matters in the past.

(I'll also add that if I really had a "bone to pick" with Sanders, I'd have brought up his recent "minimum wage" issues -- don't make enemies where there are none. I've already stated repeatedly that I'd have no problem with Sanders being the nominee.)

I didn’t lose hope for one. Second I want Warren to win.

Also I just think it’s bad politics to keep pushing something that has little chance to yield results to the forefront. It’s been proven that there are more effective attacks on Trump.

[Dalak]

I didn’t lose hope for one. Second I want Warren to win.

Also I just think it’s bad politics to keep pushing something that has little chance to yield results to the forefront. It’s been proven that there are more effective attacks on Trump.

I haven't seen any really stick at all, so what effective attacks are you talking about? All I've seen is the "bed of nails" issue at work

[BeastieRunner]

Demings established that Trump's written responses contradicted evidence obtained from guilty parties.

Mueller said that is true.

Demings established that Mueller found Trump's responses to be overwhelming false, that he lied to the American people.

Mueller generally agreed with that characterization.

[BeastieRunner]

Krishnamoorthi re-established all the money laundering from the Trump Foundation and Trump Org that is in the report.

Mueller agreed with all but one. He said the personal tax return fraud on Trump is under a current, different FBI investigation.

Krishnamoorthi established that more needs to be done to stop future election interference.

Mueller agreed and added that it's not just from Russia but other countries.

Nunes passes his remaining time to Schiff.

(SIDE NOTE: Nunes looked increasingly rattled after Mueller corrected his conspiracy theory.)

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I haven't seen any really stick at all, so what effective attacks are you talking about? All I've seen is the "bed of nails" issue at work

His tax returns being a complete flop are one. People hated the lower tax return and how it’s all been proven to mostly effect the rich. That is something that is effective with everyone. Outside that his lack of accomplishments and effectiveness.

[aja_christopher]

I didn’t lose hope for one. Second I want Warren to win.

Also I just think it’s bad politics to keep pushing something that has little chance to yield results to the forefront. It’s been proven that there are more effective attacks on Trump.

It's not "pushing" anything to have public hearings about Russian interference in our election, regardless of "Trump".

You're the one trying to frame this as all about Trump when the reality is that whether Trump wins or loses the next election, foreign interference is something we will have to address directly going forward if we want to ensure the integrity of our democracy.

There is nothing wrong with getting all of the facts out in front of the American public, especially since we paid millions for the investigation.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

It's not "pushing" anything to have public hearings of Russian interference in our election, regardless of "Trump".

You're the one trying to frame this as all about Trump when the reality is that whether Trump wins or loses the next election, foreign interference is something we will have to address regardless.

And every election going forward we will have to deal with this.

[BeastieRunner]

Schiff established that interfering and aiding, or failure to report election interference is a crime.

Mueller agreed.

Schiff established it's not a crime to pursue new money opportunities while running for POTUS.

Mueller agreed.

Schiff tried to established that Trump was worried about missing money.

Mueller refused to speculate.

Nunes refused a rebuttal.

Schiff concludes that Trump obstructed justice and would have been indicted had Trump not been POTUS.

Schiff concludes that accepting foreign help to win an election is unpatriotic and un-American. But not illegal.

[aja_christopher]

And every election going forward we will have to deal with this.

Which is much better than not dealing with it and getting another Trump in office -- or possibly something worse -- as a result.

But I won't pretend I don't see your point and understand it's validity -- there are a lot of people who have already made up their mind as to whether they are going to support Trump regardless of the charges against him, but (in my opinion) that still doesn't mean we shouldn't address his obstruction and potential conspiracy in a public forum where Americans can judge for themselves based on the evidence presented.