All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[BeastieRunner]

In summary:

- Dems focused on reading the redacted report and getting affirmations.
- Rs focused on items that Mueller could not comment on.
- Maloney and Demings shined.
- Hurd threw his team under the bus.
- Nunes did not look well.
- Steward got confirmation of intent.
- RUSSIA INTERFERED TO HELP TRUMP WIN. PERIOD.
- The Mueller Report was intended to notify the public and galvanize people to act to stop this from happening again.
- While most of what Trump did was a crime, it technically is not prosecutable at the current standard of evidence. He would have been indicted had he be a citizen.
- It's up to Congress to act now.
- It appears that other related and on-going investigations will be coming for Trump when he leaves office.
- The new American norm going forward appears to be, "Get help from hostile foreign power to win. Give them help later when you're elected."
- Mueller did not answer 198 times. EDIT: I guess the final total is 206.
- BOTH SIDES are claiming victory. Yay ...

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Which is much better than not dealing with it and getting another Trump in office -- or possibly something worse -- as a result.

But I won't pretend I don't see your point and understand it's validity -- there are a lot of people who have already made up their mind as to whether they are going to support Trump regardless of the charges against him, but that still doesn't mean we shouldn't address his obstruction and potential conspiracy in a public forum where Americans can judge for themselves based on the evidence presented.

I would have rather waited for October 2020 to do this. Let it die down. Let people forget. Then have Mueller come out and have to field these questions. Bring every detail into the game again when they are distracted and don’t want to be fielding it. Right now they can counter, lean on their base and then wait for the wave to go out.

To me the threat is more dangerous than going through with impeachment because I don’t see a path to win on the procedure. But Donald Trump in October with Pelosi putting up a motion to proceed with impeachment after the election is just bad optics for him and the GOP. To me that’s the right strategy unless you have the votes to do it.

[aja_christopher]

I would have rather waited for October 2020 to do this. Let it die down. Let people forget. Then have Mueller come out and have to field these questions. Bring every detail into the game again when they are distracted and don’t want to be fielding it. Right now they can counter, lean on their base and then wait for the wave to go out.

To me the threat is more dangerous than going through with impeachment because I don’t see a path to win on the procedure. But Donald Trump in October with Pelosi putting up a motion to proceed with impeachment after the election is just bad optics for him and the GOP. To me that’s the right strategy unless you have the votes to do it.

I definitely see your point here as well, but there are a lot of Democrats who feel impeachment is too important to put off, especially given Trump's (and the Republican party's) rapid descent into authoritarianism -- I think there's something to be said for both arguments but I also think these hearings are meant to be the starting point for what is most likely a very long-term congressional investigation, possibly stretching into the next election and beyond.

Guess we'll see how it plays out going forward.

[PaulBullion]

Even Pelosi can't ignore this, can she?

I think the question is if the Democrats who weren't on board with impeachment will ignore this. Pelosi never makes a move unless she has the votes in the House.

[Iron Maiden]

His tax returns being a complete flop are one. People hated the lower tax return and how it’s all been proven to mostly effect the rich. That is something that is effective with everyone. Outside that his lack of accomplishments and effectiveness.

I disagree on that. It's one of the things they may need to prove that Trump's money has suspicious sources. Trump was deep in debt at one point and he had to look elsewhere for loans. Deuteschebank bailed him out big time. They've been know to be involved with money laundering for Russian oligarchs. The Bank of Cypress may be a thing too but that's more Wibur Ross. I'm betting the Feds are still working the case and following the money. Sometimes you need a sort of forensic accountant to do it (one of my nephews does this kind of work)

[Gray Lensman]

This is a very good summary of the hearings, IMO.

The Mueller hearing is a show and all of the Reps are grandstanding. But the Democrats are doing it to impress voters while all the Republicans are only trying to impress Trump. That’s a huge difference, democracy vs autocracy.

In the waning days of Russian democracy, when there were still opposition forces in Parliament, they would still speak to the people. The rest just tried to echo and flatter Putin, because that’s where the real power was. The GOP today sounds like them.

Chilling.

[aja_christopher]

"Mueller’s testimony today proved Republicans now have greater loyalty to Trump than their country"

"After over two years of disinformation being disseminated from Donald Trump’s Twitter feed, and lies subsequently perpetuated by Attorney General William Barr and conservative media, we have finally heard from the man himself. In his 89th appearance before Congress, former Special Counsel Robert Mueller testified before the House Judiciary and House Intelligence Committees and showcased to the American people the extent of Donald Trump‘s deceptive corruption.

While Republicans sought to disparage Robert Mueller personally, push conspiracy theories, and protect President Trump’s image, Democrats highlighted the facts. In other words, Democrats pursued justice while Republicans sought to further obstruct it. If Republicans really feel President Trump has been exonerated by the Mueller report, why would they seek to undermine the integrity of Mueller himself? In spite of the Republican hackery, House Democrats offered solid questions that garnered testimony from Mueller that definitively debunked the Trump Administration’s false narratives.

President Trump was not “exonerated” and Mueller’s report did not say there was “no collusion, no obstruction.” The hearings highlighted the fact the Office of Legal Counsel’s (OLC) memos are the reason Mueller did not consider charging Trump and Mueller stated on live TV that Trump could be charged with obstruction after leaving office. When it comes to Russia’s interference, Mueller testified that Russia’s interference was not a “hoax,” his investigation was not a “witch hunt,” and that the Trump Campaign was receptive to Russia’s help.

Mueller’s opening statement outlined the Russian government’s sweeping and systematic attack on US democracy, and undermined one of President Trump’s most parroted lies. Mueller stated: “We did not address collusion, which is not a legal term...”

House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler began the hearing with an incredibly effective line of questioning. In five minutes, Nadler got Mueller to say his report did not exonerate Trump, that his report didn’t find “no obstruction,” that the OLC memos prevented him from considering indicting President Trump, and that Trump could be indicted after leaving office.

After Nadler’s opening line of questioning, House Democrats proceeded to break down the 11 obstructive acts outlined in the Mueller report. They methodically outlined Trump’s efforts to get former White House Counsel Don McGahn to fire Mueller, efforts to get McGahn to falsify records, efforts to force former Attorney General Jeff Sessions to un-recuse himself from the Russia investigation, and various instances of witness tampering. Democrats clearly showcased how some of the acts met the three elements of obstruction of justice: obstructive act, nexus to proceeding, and corrupt intent. Democrats appeared to lay out the foundation for the basis of an impeachment inquiry.

Throughout the hearing, Mueller repeatedly referred to the OLC memos as the reason he did not consider pursuing charges against President Trump."

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a9019626.html

[worstblogever]

I think the question is if the Democrats who weren't on board with impeachment will ignore this. Pelosi never makes a move unless she has the votes in the House.

She likely has the votes in the House... but based on what we saw today, it's irrelevant, the GOP are "ride and/or die" with Trump now. Justin Amash, ***hole that he might be, was the only one with the balls to stand up to Trump. I don't know that a single Republican in the Senate has the honor towards this country to vote to convict. We would be lucky to see a few detractors and get to 50 votes, let alone the 66 needed to finish the job.

[Robotman]

She likely has the votes in the House... but based on what we saw today, it's irrelevant, the GOP are "ride and/or die" with Trump now. Justin Amash, ***hole that he might be, was the only one with the balls to stand up to Trump. I don't know that a single Republican in the Senate has the honor towards this country to vote to convict. We would be lucky to see a few detractors and get to 50 votes, let alone the 66 needed to finish the job.

Exactly. All this impeachment talk is completely pointless. The people who would decide Trump’s fate are Mitch McConnell and co. The far right has taken over the Republican party and Trump knows how to stoke the flames of hate and xenophobia to keep the base in line. The republicans in the Senate would never vote for impeachment. I’ve had to explain to people countless times that impeachment doesn’t mean removal from office.

[Theleviathan]

Exactly. All this impeachment talk is completely pointless. The people who would decide Trump’s fate are Mitch McConnell and co. The far right has taken over the Republican party and Trump knows how to stoke the flames of hate and xenophobia to keep the base in line. The republicans in the Senate would never vote for impeachment. I’ve had to explain to people countless times that impeachment doesn’t mean removal from office.

It would only look like sour grapes and be a terrible gift for Trump to stump on with the election. Pelosi is right to stall until there is something more concrete.

[aja_christopher]

Exactly. All this impeachment talk is completely pointless. The people who would decide Trump’s fate are Mitch McConnell and co. The far right has taken over the Republican party and Trump knows how to stoke the flames of hate and xenophobia to keep the base in line. The republicans in the Senate would never vote for impeachment. I’ve had to explain to people countless times that impeachment doesn’t mean removal from office.

And failure to impeach also doesn't mean it won't affect Trump and the Republicans negatively heading into the next election -- especially if the evidence unearthed during the impeachment investigation builds a solid case against them in the process, regardless of the Senate vote.

If the Republican Senate still refuses to impeach with numerous documented crimes (tax fraud, obstruction of justice, soliciting foreign interference, etc) on the record then at least the American public will have a full accounting of their crimes -- Congress still has a job to do with regards to oversight but admittedly they should be smart in how they go about doing it.

Being impeached certainly didn't help Nixon and it can be argued that Clinton's impeachment, regardless of the comparative flimsiness of the charges, still damaged the credibility of the Democratic party during the Bush vs. Gore election -- if said impeachment never happened, it's possible the Republicans wouldn't have won said election.

Not taking either side on the issue -- just pointing out the pros and cons of moving forward with impeachment.

I think we all know it's going to come down to the ballot box in 2020 -- it's just a question of how much information people will have before casting their vote.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Exactly. All this impeachment talk is completely pointless. The people who would decide Trump’s fate are Mitch McConnell and co. The far right has taken over the Republican party and Trump knows how to stoke the flames of hate and xenophobia to keep the base in line. The republicans in the Senate would never vote for impeachment. I’ve had to explain to people countless times that impeachment doesn’t mean removal from office.

Just like James T. Kirk and the Kobayashi Maru, Trump changed the rules when he put his stooge Droopy Dog Barr in charge of DOJ to shield him from Mueller. No matter, at this point, I prefer Trump lose the election next year, THEN go on trial once he’s out of office and doesn’t have the Republican Party protecting his ass.

[Robotman]

And failure to impeach also doesn't mean it won't affect Trump and the Republicans negatively heading into the next election -- especially if the evidence unearthed during the impeachment investigation builds a solid case against them in the process, regardless of the Senate vote.

If the Republican Senate still refuses to impeach with numerous documented crimes (tax fraud, obstruction of justice, soliciting foreign interference, etc) on the record then at least the American public will have a full accounting of their crimes -- Congress still has a job to do with regards to oversight but admittedly they should be smart in how they go about doing it.

Being impeached certainly didn't help Nixon and it can be argued that Clinton's impeachment, regardless of the comparative flimsiness of the charges, still damaged the credibility of the Democratic party during the Bush vs. Gore election -- if said impeachment never happened, it's possible the Republicans wouldn't have won said election.

Not taking either side on the issue -- just pointing out the pros and cons of moving forward with impeachment.

I think we all know it's going to come down to the ballot box in 2020 -- it's just a question of how much information people will have before casting their vote.

Sadly, it’s become pretty obvious that at least 45% of the American public don’t care about facts. There could be steal clad proof of collusion and obstruction and it would be brushed off as a conspiracy by the dems. I’ve given up on anyone’s testimony having any impact on public opinion. The Republican Party is too far gone at this point. Trump is only leaving office if he loses the election and maybe not even then.

[4saken1]

She likely has the votes in the House... but based on what we saw today, it's irrelevant, the GOP are "ride and/or die" with Trump now. Justin Amash, ***hole that he might be, was the only one with the balls to stand up to Trump. I don't know that a single Republican in the Senate has the honor towards this country to vote to convict. We would be lucky to see a few detractors and get to 50 votes, let alone the 66 needed to finish the job.

Assuming Trump's removal is the only reason why Democrats should move to impeach, you have a good point. How many votes are Dems going to lose because they look like spineless little bitches, I wonder?

[numberthirty]

Assuming Trump's removal is the only reason why Democrats should move to impeach, you have a good point. How many votes are Dems going to lose because they look like spineless little bitches, I wonder?

Seriously, forget that take completely for a second.

A lot of the talks has been about being in league with whoever.

Trump's campaign being in league with Russia, and so on.

If you are roughly saying "This guy clearly took part in criminal acts..." but opt not to attempt to hold him to account even though you are the only body that is currently in a position to do so?

Aren't you essentially an accessory of sorts past that point?