All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[SquirrelMan]

Do Harris just outlined her “student debt relief” and “Medicare for All” proposals. Yeah she moved way down my list. Doesn’t help that the only two good things she did in the debate she walked back after the fact. Had her as a third choice. Now she’s probably nearing Gillibrand levels for me

This board frowns on people calling women "Do". It's rude, sexist and inappropriate.

[SquirrelMan]

Apparently one of the CA shooters was another far right terrorist.

We need more Antifa, not less.

[wjowski]

For all the hand-wringing over Antifa the skinheads are the ones with the body count.

[TheManInBlack]

As I read your link in the research you praised I'll repeat - I've seen no reports of Antifa plowing into peaceful crowds waiting in line. If that's not the case I'll accept some links that didn't pop up in my Google search, but until then I have to assume you were out there engaging in some way in order to get any of them to want to assault you regardless of why. Your whole tone also seems to ignore the fact that I condemned what happened as well being defensive at being called a Nazi even though no one has done so. Maybe that was what the Antifa said that set you off and thus got you to engage them, or it could be any number of other reasons but right now I have no reason to assume a gang of them just picked you at random to assault if you were doing nothing to anyone and remaining away from the protests.

Dude... there are videos of Antifa at the festival with smoke grenades and incendiary devices. Just check YouTube. They even posted one themselves. There are numerous first hand reports of them assaulting and harassing people. They didn't pick me at random at all, they were targeting concertgoers in general. The protests were right up in my face, I didn't have to go looking for it. I'm astonished at the level of victim-blaming going on here. Maybe I was just asking for it, I guess? Would you browbeat the victim of alt-right hate this way or would you give them the benefit of the doubt, especially when evidence takes less than 30 seconds to find?

Complaints against Antifa as opposed to White Nationalists strike me as a doctor concerned over a hangnail when the patient has a sucking chest wound.

I think anyone has a right to be concerned about a multi-national group of radicalized cells prone to wearing masks and committing gang violence, especially if it happened to them. I absolutely am concerned by white nationalists--complaining about one does not someone mean endorsing the other. A few posts back I condemned them both, saying that I call them out when I see them. Also, (and I realize this is due to my location in the North, but) I've witnessed a hell of a lot more Antifa violence than white nationalists, but almost nobody condemns it.

Edited to add:

This board frowns on people calling women "Do". It's rude, sexist and inappropriate.

What does "Do" mean in relation to women? I tried to google it and came up with nothing. I assumed his post auto-corrected 'dude' to 'do,' but maybe I was wrong?

[numberthirty]

Complaints against Antifa as opposed to White Nationalists strike me as a doctor concerned over a hangnail when the patient has a sucking chest wound.

Got to politely disagree.

A hangnail doesn't really have the potential to grown into anything that could potentially damage the person. Even if it never does, Antifa absolutely has that potential.

[Jim Kelly]

I've only seen "antifa" used in American political rhetoric. It's strange to see it used in the context of a Canadian cultural event in Montreal.

Montreal has lots of summer music festivals. Culturally, it's a wonderful place. But there is a big secularist movement right now that plays into a peculiar kind of Quebec xenophobia. They went through the Quiet Revolution which changed the society. For centuries everything had been controlled by the Catholic Church and that might explain why the younger generation embraced a secular agenda to break free from that conservative control.

But the secularist movement is--I don't think you can call it left or right. I think it's very fascistic and intolerant, but it's dressed up in the rhetoric of the left. They are passing laws that prevent certain workers from wearing any religious symbols--but this seems geared toward Sikhs and Muslims and less so toward Jews and Catholics in its application. It's quite ironic, given that the early French-Canadians were discriminated against by English laws that made it hard for them to hold office--by making them swear oaths to the Crown and other such hurdles that went against their religion or national identity.

Politics makes strange bedfellows in Quebec and it doesn't so easily fit into the paradigm that American pundits have created.

[aja_christopher]

Dude... there are videos of Antifa at the festival with smoke grenades and incendiary devices. Just check YouTube. They even posted one themselves. There are numerous first hand reports of them assaulting and harassing people. They didn't pick me at random at all, they were targeting concertgoers in general. The protests were right up in my face, I didn't have to go looking for it. I'm astonished at the level of victim-blaming going on here. Maybe I was just asking for it, I guess? Would you browbeat the victim of alt-right hate this way or would you give them the benefit of the doubt, especially when evidence takes less than 30 seconds to find?



I think anyone has a right to be concerned about a multi-national group of radicalized cells prone to wearing masks and committing gang violence, especially if it happened to them. I absolutely am concerned by white nationalists--complaining about one does not someone mean endorsing the other. A few posts back I condemned them both, saying that I call them out when I see them. Also, (and I realize this is due to my location in the North, but) I've witnessed a hell of a lot more Antifa violence than white nationalists, but almost nobody condemns it.

People here have repeatedly condemned the violence, so again, your anecdotal evidence doesn't override our direct experience -- the main reason why people don't attack Antifa as often is because many people support those who will take a stand against racism and fascism in our society when the "authorities" won't.

You're more than welcome to stand on the other side of that line, but keep in mind who your allies are (i.e. fascists and Nazis) in that regard when discussing said issue.

Also, I posted proof that one of the bands (Graveland) was openly neo-Nazi which is why Antifa protested the event -- not everyone has to be as tolerant of Nazis as you seem to want others to be.

[Theleviathan]

Complaints against Antifa as opposed to White Nationalists strike me as a doctor concerned over a hangnail when the patient has a sucking chest wound.

The threat posed by a group willing to openly use and condone violence is more of a threat than a hangnail, but the larger point is this: a doctor would still treat both issues, even if one has much more priority.

The problem, as I see it, is with the idea that people on the left can't even stomach an unqualified renouncement of violence. Yeah, the skin-head, right-wing, racists are a much more dangerous problem. That does not, however, mean that the other isn't worthy of criticism as well. That movement could well become a major problem if left to fester with tacit approval. Just look at the pretzels people are bending themselves into not to just say "Yeah, what they're doing is not ok with me"

There is a lot of dangerous, fallacious thinking around Antifa on the left. And, worse yet, it actually feeds the right wing complaints. The easiest way to kill the right wing's boogeyman about it is to acknowledge these guys are fighting a problem the right way. Not fucking hem and haw about it and end up creating your own illogical defenses. Give them no quarter and then go back to the real threats.

[Gray Lensman]

The threat posed by a group willing to openly use and condone violence is more of a threat than a hangnail, but the larger point is this: a doctor would still treat both issues, even if one has much more priority.

The problem, as I see it, is with the idea that people on the left can't even stomach an unqualified renouncement of violence. Yeah, the skin-head, right-wing, racists are a much more dangerous problem. That does not, however, mean that the other isn't worthy of criticism as well. That movement could well become a major problem if left to fester with tacit approval. Just look at the pretzels people are bending themselves into not to just say "Yeah, what they're doing is not ok with me"

There is a lot of dangerous, fallacious thinking around Antifa on the left. And, worse yet, it actually feeds the right wing complaints. The easiest way to kill the right wing's boogeyman about it is to acknowledge these guys are fighting a problem the right way. Not fucking hem and haw about it and end up creating your own illogical defenses. Give them no quarter and then go back to the real threats.

They are worthy of criticism - but normally I hear about them being brought up as a whatboutism shield to deflect from the far right and their bodycount. I am far more worried about the group with a death toll than the one without.

[BeastieRunner]

White supremacists have killed and continue to kill people every year. The most recent one was last night. It's just getting worse.

When's the last time "antifa" killed some people? Because I'm having a hard time finding that one.

Whining about the potential violence from an unorganized group is fucking hilarious when you got crazy ass white guys burning down black churches, pulling too-tan white people out of cars to beat them because they though they were black, and shooting brown children at family food festivals.

IN. THE. SAME. WEEK.

This is getting ridiculous.

[aja_christopher]

The problem, as I see it, is with the idea that people on the left can't even stomach an unqualified renouncement of violence.

Except that's been done by the "left" on this board repeatedly so it's a false argument.

It's false to say "the left" supports the violent actions of Antifa -- what they support is that someone is taking a stand against fascism and Nazism, even if they don't agree with their methods.

[TheManInBlack]

People here have repeatedly condemned the violence, so again, your anecdotal evidence doesn't override our direct experience

It's not anecdotal when there are videos of it and numerous articles.

the main reason why people don't attack Antifa as often is because many people support those who will take a stand against racism and fascism in our society when the "authorities" won't.

You're more than welcome to stand on the other side of that line, but keep in mind who your allies are (i.e. fascists and Nazis) in that regard when discussing said issue.

Condemning violence in the streets by black clad and masked cells does not make me a Nazi ally. That's an absolutely disgusting and frankly insulting thing to say. This 'with us or against us' divisiveness is insane. The VAST majority of the world just wants the fringes to stop being violent assholes.

Also, I posted proof that one of the bands (Graveland) was openly neo-Nazi which is why Antifa protested the event -- not everyone has to be as tolerant of Nazis as you seem to want others to be.

One band that had never even played a show in North America before (citation, Wikipedia) and almost no one knew the background of. Out of a multi-day festival attended by people of dozens of skin colors, religions, and nationalities. How does my attending that concert and defending against the violence leveled against innocent people mean I'm somehow tolerant of Nazis? That's ludicrous. You're reaching like, Mr. Fantastic levels of reach.

I've only seen "antifa" used in American political rhetoric. It's strange to see it used in the context of a Canadian cultural event in Montreal.

They're all over the world. The friend I referenced earlier was originally from Ontario and married a guy from Finland, moving over there and joined the local Antifa there which she says is even more active. Don't take my word for it, google can bring up info in seconds. They're also very popular in the UK. It's not an American phenomenon.

Edited to add:

Whining about the potential violence...

There's nothing 'potential' about it. They regularly commit violence. It is utterly illogical to say that one cannot condemn a violent group of cells just because something worse is out there. By that logic we shouldn't be worrying about white supremacists at all because Al Qaeda exists. That's just poor logic.

[aja_christopher]

It's not anecdotal when there are videos of it and numerous articles.

Condemning violence in the streets by black clad and masked cells does not make me a Nazi ally. That's an absolutely disgusting and frankly insulting thing to say. This 'with us or against us' divisiveness is insane. The VAST majority of the world just wants the fringes to stop being violent assholes.

One band that had never even played a show in North America before (citation, Wikipedia) and almost no one knew the background of. Out of a multi-day festival attended by people of dozens of skin colors, religions, and nationalities. How does my attending that concert and defending against the violence leveled against innocent people mean I'm somehow tolerant of Nazis? That's ludicrous. You're reaching like, Mr. Fantastic levels of reach.

I'm not "reaching" for anything -- I'm pointing out that you were misleading people in stating that none of the bands were affiliated with Nazism. Antifa didn't just show up suddenly and start attacking people -- they sent out flyers beforehand pointing out that they were not going to let Nazis perform in their town and then followed through on that promise.

And we both "condemned" violence by Antifa -- it's just that (based on your posts) one of us seems to think both are equal threats to society despite factual evidence showing that's not the case.

[TheManInBlack]

I'm not "reaching" for anything -- I'm pointing out that you were misleading people in stating that none of the bands were affiliated with Nazism.

I was pretty clear that the frontman of one of the bands was affiliated. Kindly point out where I claimed that there was no Nazi connection.

Edited to address your edit:

Antifa didn't just show up suddenly and start attacking people -- they sent out flyers beforehand pointing out that they were not going to let Nazis perform in their town and then followed through on that promise.

You do realize that people come from all over the world to attend huge festivals right? There were people there from Canada, the US, even a few from overseas that I met up with. Do you think any of those people coming from outside Montreal saw those local flyers? What's with all this victim-blaming? You're grasping for straws and it's ridiculous.

[aja_christopher]

I was pretty clear that the frontman of one of the bands was affiliated. Kindly point out where I claimed that there was no Nazi connection.

You said he had "sung fascist lyrics in the past" -- one can be a fascist without being a Nazi and you said nothing about Nazism.

It's a moot point anyway: if you see "Antifa" and the "left-wing" as the problem, or as equally problematic as Nazis and white supremacists, then so be it.

-----
"Gilroy Garlic Festival shooting: Suspect Santino William Legan, 19, identified as gunman who allegedly killed 3 people"

"Santino William Legan, 19, was identified as the alleged shooter on Monday, law enforcement sources confirmed to ABC News.

Investigators are aware of recent posts Legan wrote on Instagram that include white supremacist themes, multiple law enforcement officials briefed on the probe told ABC News. One entry, which criticizes the garlic festival, appears to have been posted Sunday from the event, showing crowds of attendees.

Another message posted Sunday criticizes people of mixed racial heritage and makes reference to a book popular among white supremacists, officials said."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/active-sho...al-california/