All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[TheManInBlack]

You said he had "sung fascist lyrics in the past" -- one can be a fascist without being a Nazi.

No. I didn't. Why are you lying?

I'm not a fan of the band Graveland, but my understanding it that it's just the frontman has these views, but the band itself isn't a vector nor are the lyrics. Either way, it's not okay to assume a bunch of festival goes are nazis because one band in the entire festival has a nazi in the band that most people don't even know about. And it's certainly not okay to assault people for attending the show.

You edited to add:

you said nothing about Nazism

I did in multiple posts, including the quoted one. Again, why are you lying?

[aja_christopher]

No. I didn't. Why are you lying?

Ask yourself that question.

I went to a black metal festival in Montreal where one (singular) out of a dozen bands was purported to have sung fascist lyrics in the past. Antifa harassed, threw smoke bombs at, and assaulted numerous people attending the show, myself included.

Regardless of semantics, the issue at hand is that you apparently think it's not an issue for Nazis to perform on stage while there are others who feel that neo-Nazis are on the rise, shooting up mosques, black churches and synagogues and have no problem meeting them head on rather than waiting for "authorities" to act, and if that means breaking up a concert that plays host to them, then that's what they will do.

You can disagree with that as much as you like, but that's basically where the matter stands.

[TheManInBlack]

Ask yourself that question.

You claimed I said nothing about Nazism. I clearly did. This isn't a debate. You're lying or made a mistake and refuse to take it back. This is demonstrable fact, and claiming otherwise is juvenile.

[aja_christopher]

You claimed I said nothing about Nazism. I clearly did. This isn't a debate. You're lying or made a mistake and refuse to take it back. This is demonstrable fact, and claiming otherwise is juvenile.

No, I just didn't read all of your posts -- I have no problem admitting that you (later) stated he was affiliated with Nazism since it supports my argument.

The original point stands regardless -- Nazis showed up so Antifa showed up as well.

The best way to get rid of "Antifa" is to keep racists and fascists out of our streets and our government.

[Tendrin]

I see some people want to play the false equivalency game with 'antifa' even a day after a white supremacist murders three people for the crime of being brown while enjoying food.

[TheManInBlack]

No, I just didn't read all of your posts -- I have no problem admitting that you (later) stated he was affiliated with Nazism since it supports my argument.

That only took three posts and irrefutable evidence for you to admit you didn't even read my posts that you were condemning me for. Good show.

[aja_christopher]

That only took three posts and irrefutable evidence for you to admit you didn't even read my posts that you were condemning me for. Good show.

It took you posting the actual quote (like I did) since I didn't bother reading all of your posts and responded to your initial downplaying of his Nazi ties.

But if you want to sit here and take a victory lap instead of just addressing the fact that you only verified my point about Antifa showing up to counter Nazis, go right ahead -- it shows that you're more interested in getting a "win" than addressing the issue at hand.

[Dalak]

Dude... there are videos of Antifa at the festival with smoke grenades and incendiary devices. Just check YouTube. They even posted one themselves. There are numerous first hand reports of them assaulting and harassing people. They didn't pick me at random at all, they were targeting concertgoers in general. The protests were right up in my face, I didn't have to go looking for it. I'm astonished at the level of victim-blaming going on here. Maybe I was just asking for it, I guess? Would you browbeat the victim of alt-right hate this way or would you give them the benefit of the doubt, especially when evidence takes less than 30 seconds to find?

Once again - I've seen no evidence of them attacking peaceful groups of concert goers, just throwing shit at the police which no one is denying. I'm not going to waste hours of my day scanning more youtube videos for this, so if you have something in mind that can refute this post it as I've asked you to so you can back up your assertions. Rapists regularly target people at random and Right-Wing Violence is very unfocused as well (No protesting group hates just one color of skin or creed, they're diverse bigots), whereas Antifa seem to at least try channeling their violence. If they did blindly charge the crowds and put foot to face and assault the shit out of them it would be EVERYWHERE and the GoP would be throwing the footage around 24/7, so I really doubt it exists but I'm willing to eat crow if you show it to me. Until then I'm going by the dozens of stories I've seen about people complaining of Antifa assaults against them which have wound up brought upon themselves by pulling out a collapsible baton or threatening violence of another sort, and I'm assuming you had to provoke them to get a 'gang' to assault you as you've claimed.

There's nothing 'potential' about it. They regularly commit violence. It is utterly illogical to say that one cannot condemn a violent group of cells just because something worse is out there. By that logic we shouldn't be worrying about white supremacists at all because Al Qaeda exists. That's just poor logic.

Al Qaeda isn't winning national elections in many countries, White Supremacists are. The same morons screaming about how they'll never allow sharia law in America are empowering white supremacists even if they aren't ones. White Supremacy is a greater threat to global stability than Al Qaeda is and falls under the same Terrorist umbrella.

I see some people want to play the false equivalency game with 'antifa' even a day after a white supremacist murders three people for the crime of being brown while enjoying food.

Ed Zachary.

[aja_christopher]

"Gilroy Garlic Festival gunman referred to 'Might is Right' manifesto before shooting"

Santino William Legan used an AK-47-style rifle he bought legally in Nevada to kill and wound a dozen more.

"The gunman who killed three people and wounded a dozen more at the Gilroy Garlic Festival in Northern California was an angry 19-year-old who had recently waded into the world of white supremacy.

Santino William Legan, who was shot dead by police Sunday before he could do more damage, posted online about an 1890 racist manifesto, “Might is Right or The Survival of the Fittest,” NBC News confirmed.

“Read Might is Right by Ragnar Redbeard,” Legan posted on his Instagram page. He then used a slurs against mixed-race people and misogynistic descriptions of white Silicon Valley workers, complaining about "hordes" of them "overcrowding" towns.

Redbeard, which was a pseudonym, argued that only strength and violence determined what is morally right. The work, which is filled with misogynistic and anti-Semitic rhetoric, is a staple among neo-Nazis and white supremacists on extremist sites.

And the phrase “might is right” is often posted as a sort of motto or catchphrase indicating white supremacy on neo-Nazi extremist forums.

Legan was also apparently no fan of the festival, a three-day food fair that began in 1979 to celebrate the local garlic industry — and which was in walking distance from his home on a tree-lined street in Gilroy.

“Ayyy garlic festival time,” his post read. “Come get wasted on overpriced s---.”

Below that was a post from someone named futboieden, which read “when you get too wasted and accidentally shoot up the festival.”

Just who futboieden was remained unclear a day after the nation was left grappling with yet another mass shooting. This one claimed the lives of 6-year-old Stephen Romero, a 13-year-old girl, and a man in his 20s. The names of the other two victims were not released."



https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...oting-n1035781

[Theleviathan]

They are worthy of criticism - but normally I hear about them being brought up as a whatboutism shield to deflect from the far right and their bodycount. I am far more worried about the group with a death toll than the one without.

I agree, that is typically how it is used. I had that said to me by a right-wing relative and my responses were short and direct: "Antifa is wrong to use violence. If their violence continues to escalate it may warrant a conversation about how to respond to them. Right now their threat is minimal, but their tactics are abhorrent and should be stopped. Anything further is a what-about game I'm not going to play, their threat level is much lower than many far right groups as stated by the FBI and other law enforcement agencies"

It's really that simple. Don't feed their boogeyman by playing stupid denial games. It is not creating a false equivalency to acknowledge they are doing things the wrong way. It only becomes a false equivalency if you allow it. But it becomes a black mark on your consistency and reasonability if you can't stomach fair and valid criticism either.

Just because there is cancer doesn't mean the broken leg is a non-issue. Denying the broken leg is an issue at all and immediatley crying "false equivalency" is like wearing a hat that says "don't expect me to be fair or rational".

[Theleviathan]

Except that's been done by the "left" on this board repeatedly so it's a false argument.

It's false to say "the left" supports the violent actions of Antifa -- what they support is that someone is taking a stand against fascism and Nazism, even if they don't agree with their methods.

Maybe it has, but the last few pages have been a whole lot of soft-shoeing. There is a lot of that out in social media by liberals as well. If you want to stand up to the fascists...go register people to vote. Go build a coalition.

Violence is not a reasonable course of action and that point should be made clear. We abhor the fascists and racists not just because of their ideology but the violent terroristic methods they use to enact it. Tactics they use far more frequently for far longer. One need not mitigate their desire to do away with fascists by denouncing violence. I hear a lot about false equivalencies, but the real fallacy at work here is a false dilemma.

[Farealmer]

There is a lot of dangerous, fallacious thinking around Antifa on the left. And, worse yet, it actually feeds the right wing complaints. The easiest way to kill the right wing's boogeyman about it is to acknowledge these guys are fighting a problem the right way. Not fucking hem and haw about it and end up creating your own illogical defenses. Give them no quarter and then go back to the real threats.

Oh please, actually look at places the far right post. They literally don't even see people not of their chosen races or people of other ideologies as human. That won't change if the violent left disappeared. They'll just call the left various slang words for weak and use it as more a reason they need to be expelled.

[Theleviathan]

Oh please, actually look at places the far right post. They literally don't even see people not of their chosen races or people of other ideologies as human. That won't change if the violent left disappeared. They'll just call the left various slang words for weak and use it as more a reason they need to be expelled.

So we have to kill them is the only alternative? They have to know they will be maimed or murdered?

I'm genuinely asking, that seems to be the implication. And, before you launch into any kind of predictable response, I'm not pretending they go away or there is some sort of niceness that will win them over. I just don't condone violence as a method of solving a problem.

[aja_christopher]

Maybe it has, but the last few pages have been a whole lot of soft-shoeing. There is a lot of that out in social media by liberals as well. If you want to stand up to the fascists...go register people to vote. Go build a coalition.

Violence is not a reasonable course of action and that point should be made clear.

I've seen the majority of people on "the left" make it clear that violence isn't an acceptable form of protest, whether from "Antifa", BLM, or otherwise.



The only real debate on the issue I've seen is whether it's okay to "punch Nazis" or just to cheer on those who do.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

Antifa is good.

Violence against fascists and fascist enablers is good.