All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

This board frowns on people calling women "Do". It's rude, sexist and inappropriate.

I meant "So" and didn't bother to correct the typo. Also I reallydon't get wtf that means

[aja_christopher]

You are clearly not reading the tone of the posts here. Only in the last page or so, after prompting, has the tip toe posts stopped.

An increasing portion of the left seems to be justifying the behavior. Thats generally how bad, toxic ideas become full blown wild fires. See: Republicanism.

I've been posting on this board a lot longer than you so I know the "tone" of nearly everyone here -- with the exception of the Rosa, no one here that I know of has ever tried to justify violent or criminal behavior by Antifa, BLM, or any other "left-wing" organization.

In fact, even now you see more people on "the left" speaking out against it than promoting it.

Some of us might debate whether Cap (or Antifa) is right to "punch Nazis" (like Richard Spencer), but outside of that few on "the left" argue that criminal behavior from the "radical left" is acceptable, and certainly not on the scale as we see from the "right wing" who often murder or abuse innocents to promote their political viewpoints.

To be honest, I see even arguing this as a waste of time in the wake of the recent spate of right-wing white supremacist shootings, so I'm moving on.

[Theleviathan]

I've been here a lot longer than you so I know the "tone" of nearly everyone here -- with the exception of the Rosa, no one here that I know of has ever tried to justify violent or criminal behavior by Antifa, BLM, or any other "left-wing" organization.

In fact, even now you see more people on "the left" speaking out against it than promoting it.

Many of us might debate whether Cap or Antifa is right to "punch Nazis", but outside of that no one here is arguing that criminal behavior from the "left" is acceptable.

Im merely judging the last dozen pages. You'll have to forgive my unwillingness to review it all. Plus, politics on the spectrum are always shifting. Im more curious about how trends now portrend the future.

I'd prefer the justifying trend get quite clearly denounced.

[Farealmer]

Tell me if I'm wrong: your post was more of a comment on why they exist as opposed to a comment on how they conduct themselves?

It was in response to this part.

And, worse yet, it actually feeds the right wing complaints. The easiest way to kill the right wing's boogeyman about it is to acknowledge these guys are fighting a problem the right way.

The right will complain about the left regardless of antifa's actions or existence. That's not a condoning of their behavior, only that they are largely irrelevant to the far-right's problem.

[Mister Mets]

I already pointed that out in my post as well as how the best way to address "antifa" is to prevent racists and fascists from marching in our streets and protecting a criminal authoritarian white nationalist our White House -- as usual you're just deflecting from the fact that right-wing terrorism has been factually proven to be much more of a "serious problem" by anyone with any real knowledge of the matter, including the FBI.

Meanwhile, your Republican president continues his racist attacks on non-white Americans, while you sit here and try to equate the "threat" of Antifa to that of Dylan Roof and Timothy McVeigh.

Honestly, I'd prefer you not reply to my posts if you're not going to bother to address the issues raised directly -- at a certain point I have to simply assume that you are in league with those who would demonize people of color take our rights away, and with that in mind it serves no purpose to assume that you are replying in "good faith" when you continue to dodge the truth.

-----
"Donald Trump has launched an unprovoked attack on beloved black civil rights leader Al Sharpton after days of repeated racist insults directed at Baltimore and its congressman of colour.

The president tweeted a number of insults towards Mr Sharpton, all of which were posted without accompanying evidence, prompting a public spat between the pair.

Mr Trump’s posts on Monday morning represent his latest in a series of attack directed against people of colour in recent weeks.

In addition to his series of racist posts about Baltimore and its congressman Elijah Cummings, the tweet about Mr Sharpton was immediately followed by another attack on “the squad”, a group of congresswomen of colour who he has repeatedly targeted with racist rhetoric.

In the new post, the president said he had known Mr Sharpton for 25 years and had been friends with him, before labelling him a “troublemaker” and saying he “hates whites and cops”, while providing evidence for neither claim."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9025121.html

The part of the post you quoted is where I say it's possible to think that right-wing terrorism is a much bigger problem than Antifa, so I've hardly deflected that view.

I think the argument that the way to stop antifa is to address its concerns is flawed. This incentivizes violence and threats of violence by rewarding it, which gives others including racists and fascists the idea that they may get their way on the issues they care about through masked threats of violence.

The first amendment provides a freedom of assembly, so how would we go about preventing racists and fascists from marching in the streets? The power to stop people we don't like is prone to be abused.

Trump has a habit of going after his critics. He's mocked Nancy Pelosi's San Francisco on twitter as well.

https://www.aol.com/article/news/201...rict/23780791/

There is also a strategy in going after figures who would be unpopular in the nation, and then having Democrats go and defend them.

https://hotair.com/archives/********...y-al-sharpton/

Yet only one side has many enablers/supporters in the white house and in a major political party that can actually pass legislation to support that side. That's the more serious problem and shouldn't the more serious problem get the most attention and resources to address it? Much of far-left terrorism tends to be against legit or perceived far-right terrorism. While much of far-right terrorism tends to be against certain genders/ethnicities/sexual orientations existing or having any kind of agency.

The authorities do go after far-right terrorists so the idea that they have enablers/ supporters is a stretch. Democrats do also control the House of Representatives, as well as many local and state governments, so it's not as if they're powerless.

Cops kill and hurt more people every year than Antifa.

Let that sink in.

This is an odd comparison.

A good chunk of the people hurt and killed by cops are endangering others, including the guy in the Gilroy Garlic festival.

There are about 18,000 law enforcement agencies, so there are a lot of full-time cops out there (looking at figures for federal law enforcement as well as state and local enforcement agencies, it seems there are approximately 900,000 Americans with general arrest powers.) It's likely that the number of people in Antifa is a fraction of that, and their activities are more part-time.

Antifa isn't a broken leg. It's chemo.

Chemo can also be excessive if someone isn't facing an existential threat.

[Theleviathan]

Are you implying I was supporting violence in my posts?

I do not see that among your posts. I think you and MiB were wisely talking specifics. But I admit I glanced.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

Im merely judging the last dozen pages. You'll have to forgive my unwillingness to review it all. Plus, politics on the spectrum are always shifting. Im more curious about how trends now portrend the future.

I'd prefer the justifying trend get quite clearly denounced.

I'm the only one here that fully supports antifa, I think.

The Democratic party does not support antifa, and neither does the Democratic base.

You are asking people to denounce something they have no involvement in.

[Theleviathan]

It was in response to this part.

The right will complain about the left regardless of antifa's actions or existence. That's not a condoning of their behavior, only that they are largely irrelevant to the far-right's problem.

Gotcha. I believe that can be mitigated with smarter arguments, do you disagree?

[Tendrin]

By the time you've had a Beer Hall Putsch of any sort, you're already far too late. Fascism needs to be opposed and uprooted early and fast before it has a chance to spread. The reason we had a BEer Hall putsch in Germany at all was because of long-term enabling and coddling of right-wing extremists alongside violent repression of opposition voices to them.

We've already seen the GOP use the threat of violent anti-government extremists here in Oregon. If you think the coddling isn't going to continue, I don't know what to tell you. Pretending that 'Antifa' is 'just as bad' because it wants to punch swastika-wearing murderers, break some windows, and throw milkshakes is just... not... an accurate assessment of things. Want to get rid of 'antifa'? Get rid of the frigging Nazis.

[aja_christopher]

The part of the post you quoted is where I say it's possible to think that right-wing terrorism is a much bigger problem than Antifa, so I've hardly deflected that view.

It is -- if you ignore the facts.

Which is why I'd prefer you not reply if you're not going to address the facts I present in my posts in order to deflect to another issue, like avoiding addressing the racist behavior of both your president and your party in order to talk about "Antifa".

You could stop the "rise of Antifa" by not voting for a racist and fascist party you know has no problem committing election fraud and allowing for foreign interference in our democracy while attacking the rights of non-white and LGBT American citizens at nearly every opportunity, but in order to do that you'd have to address the problem directly.

You won't do that because -- based on your replies -- you don't really care about the facts regarding racism, right-wing violence and authoritarian fascism within the Republican party because you aren't the one being targeted by said party -- in fact, you benefit when democracy is subverted and the status quo of inequality is maintained by your political representatives.

This is what Antifa understands, and why they will punch Nazis even if I won't.

[Farealmer]

Gotcha. I believe that can be mitigated with smarter arguments, do you disagree?

Here or in left vs right stuff?

[Tendrin]

Fascists don't care about your 'smarter arguments'.

They'll just kill you.

By all means, we need to have an exit path for people to bring them out of authoritarian fascism, but we can't make a mistake about its violent roots or the danger it poses to everyone involved, and different people can do the different kinds of work involved here.

[aja_christopher]

Im merely judging the last dozen pages. You'll have to forgive my unwillingness to review it all. Plus, politics on the spectrum are always shifting. Im more curious about how trends now portrend the future.

I'd prefer the justifying trend get quite clearly denounced.

If anything, I think the more right-wing violence and authoritarianism rises to the forefront, the more support you will see for those who take a stand against it and deal with it on it's own terms.

Again, the solution is to stop the rise of the far-right and to hold people like Trump accountable for their actions.

[aja_christopher]

When even Fox is calling Trump out for racism then you know he is racist.



It's equally important to remember most of these attacks were responses to criticism regarding the immigrant detention facilities.

[Theleviathan]

Here or in left vs right stuff?

I mean in terms of how those arguments are recieved. The right wing monsters are minds unworthy of any concern, but I think fair and rational responses to their boogeyman bullshit can weaken those arguments in the wider public discourse. Whereas excsing or justifying responses feed their bullshit narrative.