All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[The Overlord]

You are welcome to voice your opinion, but can we tone down the "12 Strawmen a Post" ratio we have going please? No one said anything like that and it's hard to have a discussion if you turn every point against you into a bogus boogeyman.

The Democrats are far from perfect. Centrists can cause problems. But you know what? They ain't Trump. That, in and of itself, is significant.

If there was some large, untapped swath of Uber Progressives just waiting to roll in to vote for the first socialist.....I'd be their cheerleader too. Trump has to go. But so far as I can tell, such a group does not exist and has never existed. They didn't flood the 2016 primary. They aren't flooding the polls or the rallies of 2020 candidates of that ilk. They likely (almost certainly) don't exist.

So we gotta work with what we got.

Except I think the Dems have been letting the GOP set the terms of battle and frame the debate since the 80s.

I think you need to actually need to you change your political culture to actually progressive beyond the destructive cycle you have been put in since the 80s.

The GOP has been building its structures and its base for decades, what have the Dems been doing? The GOP managed to create massively gerrymandered maps in 2010, what have the moderates done to counteract that? Have they started a massive anti gerrymandering movement to counteract it?

I think you could build a progressive base in the US, but it's not going to easy or fun, but that's or just ceding to the GOP all the time, because they put in the effort to play the game of politics better than the Dems do.

You say I am creating strawmen, but I say I get to be outside looking in and that gives me a different perspective. I did not grow up with American myth making culture, so I can look at the American system in a more critical manner. I do not think the Canadian system is not great, but I think it's better then the American one.

[The Overlord]

There was no "argument" -- Sanders lost the vote by millions.

But that is an argument she used to win the primary and she lost to Trump. So how was she the pragmatic choice?

[Tendrin]

Two former top staffers to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell have lobbied Congress and the Treasury Department on the development of a new Kentucky aluminum mill backed by the Russian aluminum giant Rusal, according to a new lobbying disclosure.

The disclosure comes as Democrats are pushing the Trump administration to review Rusal’s $200 million investment in the Kentucky project — concerned that the mill will supply the Defense Department — and as McConnell weathers criticism for helping block a congressional effort to stop the investment.

The Russian firm was only able to make the investment after it won sanctions relief from penalties the Treasury Department initially imposed in April 2018 on Rusal and other companies owned by Oleg Deripaska, a Russian oligarch and Kremlin ally accused of facilitating Moscow’s nefarious activities, such as seizing land in Ukraine, supplying arms for the Syrian regime and meddling in other countries’ elections.
Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin announced in December that the department would lift the sanctions on Deripaska's companies, which had roiled global aluminum markets, if the oligarch agreed to drastically reduce his stake in the businesses. The deal was reportedly potentially beneficial to Deripaska, however. Deripaska himself still remains under U.S. sanctions.

#moscowmitch :P

[aja_christopher]

But that is an argument she used to win the primary and she lost to Trump. So how was she the pragmatic choice?

She wasn't the pragmatic anything -- she was the candidate that won the primary.

Here's what you seem to be missing -- most people are not voting for progressive candidates in America.

They are voting for moderates.

You can argue all day about why you think they shouldn't, but they are.

[The Overlord]

She wasn't the pragmatic anything -- she was the candidate that won the primary.

Here's what you seem to be missing -- most people are not voting for progressive candidates in America.

They are voting for moderates.

You can argue all day about why you think they shouldn't, but they are.

I feel you want argue in circles with me, you are telling me information I already know.

Okay, answer me this, how is the argument for making Biden the candidate now different then the argument to make Clinton the candidate in 2016? Is there any lessons be learned from Clinton's defeat that we can apply to this election?

If you can't answer these questions in a serious manner, it doesn't seem your argument is really deep or serious. If you do not advocate reflection or learning from mistakes, you are promoting repetition of slogans. Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting, what's different with Biden compared to Clinton in 2016 or Kerry in 2004?

[Theleviathan]

You say I am creating strawmen, but I say I get to be outside looking in and that gives me a different perspective. I did not grow up with American myth making culture, so I can look at the American system in a more critical manner. I do not think the Canadian system is not great, but I think it's better then the American one.

The strawman is accusing people of saying Biden is going to change everything. No...one...said...that! There have been quite a few examples of similar arguments from you. It's fallacious and unfair. I will take issue with your other points, but the only myth making happening here is on your end. You are creating false arguments because you can't respond to the real ones fairly.

Now, I'm all for reframing the debates. I'm thankful for Sanders and Warren and others who are pushing in that direction. However, at the end of the day losing elections has real consequences that are hard to undo. When progressives have enough of a foothold in the electorate, hell yeah, go with it. But I'm not willing to sacrifice years of the Senate or the Presidency in the name of ideological pride. That's easy for you to say in Canada, those of us in the US have to live with the consequences. If only a moderate can defeat Trump? Then so be it. Attacking moderates as evil Trump-lites does exactly nothing but weaken the movement left. It alienates people that may be willing to shift with you for what? Yeah, pride and selfishness. It's short-sighted and doomed.

[The Overlord]

The strawman is accusing people of saying Biden is going to change everything. No...one...said...that! There have been quite a few examples of similar arguments from you. It's fallacious and unfair. I will take issue with your other points, but the only myth making happening here is on your end. You are creating false arguments because you can't respond to the real ones fairly.

Now, I'm all for reframing the debates. I'm thankful for Sanders and Warren and others who are pushing in that direction. However, at the end of the day losing elections has real consequences that are hard to undo. When progressives have enough of a foothold in the electorate, hell yeah, go with it. But I'm not willing to sacrifice years of the Senate or the Presidency in the name of ideological pride. That's easy for you to say in Canada, those of us in the US have to live with the consequences. If only a moderate can defeat Trump? Then so be it. Attacking moderates as evil Trump-lites does exactly nothing but weaken the movement left. It alienates people that may be willing to shift with you for what? Yeah, pride and selfishness. It's short-sighted and doomed.

Did not say they are evil, I said they are weak, that is a different criticism, the moderates are so weak they walk all over them. They let bad men win, though their weakness and lack of real will or conviction.

You guys got mad me for not getting involved enough and I when revealed I cannot do that, you criticize me for being an outsider looking in.

Your not getting my criticism of Biden, I do not he is evil and wants change everything, I think he is weak and wants to change nothing. Would he reach across the aisle and keep those ice camps on the border? Would he have the guts to take that issue or just cede it to the GOP? It seems like moderates let them get their way anyway, they cede power to them.

I am not calling moderates evil, I am calling them weak and stand by that, I am not morally outraged by them, I am disappointed by how mediocre they are and unable they are to do the real work needed to improve American society.

I do not hate them, but I think are gatekeepers to a status quo that aids the GOP. Winning should involve the will to enact great ideas, not just caving in all the time. The moderates just create mediocrity, that is why the GOP ends up dominating them.

Without a true left wing, the system will continue to decay and rot.

To me Trump's win is a revealation on how screwed up American society has become, a healthy society would not do this. You need massive reform fix this sickness and Biden just wants to put everyone back to sleep so we pretend all this is an abriration, getting "woke" means nothing if people want to do is go back to sleep.

The US needs a grassroots movement to promote top to bottom reform, anything else is putting a bandaid on a gaping wound. Sure it would help, but the wound is still there. In the current system, Trump is not a bug, he is a feature.

[numberthirty]

Is this implying that a lack of progressive candidates is why we have low voter turnout?

It's not "Implying..." anything.

"Center-Right..." and "Right..." leaves a lot of people just saying "I Ain't Got A Dog In This Race..."

[numberthirty]

There was no "argument" -- Sanders lost the vote by millions.

And then Sander's opponent lost the entire South.

Was the party having it's say worth that and losing Wisconsin and Michigan?

Because having it's say is about all it's voters have to show for having done so.

[numberthirty]

She wasn't the pragmatic anything -- she was the candidate that won the primary.

Here's what you seem to be missing -- most people are not voting for progressive candidates in America.

They are voting for moderates.

You can argue all day about why you think they shouldn't, but they are.

- Think about how many voting age Americans exist.
- Think about how many registered voters cast a vote for HRC.
- Factoring those two realities in, I'd say "Most People..." is stretching the truth. Even if you want to cut moderate Democrats some slack.

[Theleviathan]

It's not "Implying..." anything.

"Center-Right..." and "Right..." leaves a lot of people just saying "I Ain't Got A Dog In This Race..."

So there's this treasure trove of untapped liberal voters just waiting for a progressive?

Well, two obvious problems come to mind:

1) Where were all these disaffected liberals when Bernie could have been pushed over Hillary in 2016 but lost by millions of votes?

2) Where were they in 2018 when most of the progressives running for office lost their elections?

Again, reality seems to disagree with what you want it to be. But, by all means, substantiate your claim.

[Theleviathan]

Without a true left wing, the system will continue to decay and rot.

It will decay and rot if Republicans continue to win elections as well. There has to be some degree of balance. Yes, push the conversation and the ideas left, but balance it with winning elections.

I've said here before, I'm not tied to any one candidate. I like various things about various candidates. As a non-Dem or non-Republican I have one and only one objective: losses for Republicans. Any centrist, independent, liberal, socialist, or anything else that can deliver a Republican loss has my support.

[numberthirty]

So there's this treasure trove of untapped liberal voters just waiting for a progressive?

Well, two obvious problems come to mind:

1) Where were all these disaffected liberals when Bernie could have been pushed over Hillary in 2016 but lost by millions of votes?

2) Where were they in 2018 when most of the progressives running for office lost their elections?

Again, reality seems to disagree with what you want it to be. But, by all means, substantiate your claim.

Serious question...

How many Democratic primaries will allow a voter who is not a member of the Democratic Party to vote in a primary?

[The Overlord]

So there's this treasure trove of untapped liberal voters just waiting for a progressive?

Well, two obvious problems come to mind:

1) Where were all these disaffected liberals when Bernie could have been pushed over Hillary in 2016 but lost by millions of votes?

2) Where were they in 2018 when most of the progressives running for office lost their elections?

Again, reality seems to disagree with what you want it to be. But, by all means, substantiate your claim.

If moderates are key to winning, why do a lot of them lose? Clinton lost in 2016, Kerry lost in 2004 and the Dems lost a 1000 seats during the Obama years. Why will Biden be different? If he loses, will you accept this promise is flawed or double down? You said Kerry lost because he faced an incumbent, so will Biden, so why would he do better then Kerry?

You just to want ignore all the times your premise is false and it comes off as dogmatic, not fact based, what would convince you that this premise is wrong?

[numberthirty]

So there's this treasure trove of untapped liberal voters just waiting for a progressive?

Well, two obvious problems come to mind:

1) Where were all these disaffected liberals when Bernie could have been pushed over Hillary in 2016 but lost by millions of votes?

2) Where were they in 2018 when most of the progressives running for office lost their elections?

Again, reality seems to disagree with what you want it to be. But, by all means, substantiate your claim.

As for this, let's go on ahead and roll tape.

Joe Manchin. Most folks have heard of the guy, and he was supposedly untouchable in his primary.

Polling? Had "Undecided" at thirty-eight percent and his opponent at about seven percent.

Come the primary, his opponent(who had never run for office and obviously lacked any party support) took thirty percent of the total.

If you think that a supposedly untouchable "Business As Usual..." Democrat having thirty percent of the vote swiped out from under him points to their not really being an untapped group of progressive voters, you would have to be able to explain a nobody walking in with no support and walking out with thirty percent of the vote.

I get the feeling that thirty was not moderates.