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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Visa vi unfairly stripping people of their benefits --or at least those not so obvious that the media cant have a field day-- through manipulation of their internal scoring system and ignoring legitimate reasons for not turning up to meetings (Because funerals and hospitals are totally just casual things that can be rescheduled) leading to people dying in poverty or through excasperation of illness.

    Anecdotally I know a gentleman who (on their 1/10 scoring system with 3 being the average for minimum benefits) scored an 8 due to his very serious mental health issues and having a permanently damaged spine. He was told he was fit to work. He spent nearly a year in anxiety and frustration trying to scrape enough money together to live in his one bedroom flat, all the while navigating the Benefits system, after two appeals it finally went to court where the Judge laughed in the Benefits guys face and said "This man clearly deserves his money" and had the whole thing solved in 5 minuites.

    This has happened very often. The Benefits group essentially hopes that by using bureaucracy they can force people to not bother to fight for what they are owed.

    My dad here in the USA had two artificial hips and an artificial shoulder and was scored 'fit to work' for his physically demanding job when he could barely walk and certainly could not get down easily on his hands and knees as was required for it.

    He spent multiple years trying to get his disability and, exactly as in your case, it finally got in front of a judge who laughed in government's face and awarded him his disability.

    These departments cultivate cultures of contempt for those they serve all too frequently and begin with the presumption of dishonesty. It is vile.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    Meanwhile, Sanders is still campaigning on the long debunked "economic anxiety" trope, showing he has no concept on why Trump really won, so how can he figure out how to beat him?

    Again regardless of whatever you think the primary reason people voted for Trump was, Democrats have to come to a reckoning with the fact that yes for Trump to win the Presidency he needed to make a sizeable portion of Obama voters come out for him in some key states. That did happen.

    Also you have to look at strategy. What states actually cost you the election. Mostly midwertern rust belt states. Those were the crucial states with the smallest margins of victory that the Democrats had the best chance to win and didn't that gave Trump his pathway.

    What message from a Democratic canidate is going to play well with those people? That they are all racist and that's why Trump won? Or that they are in a desperate economic situation and were lied to by a con man". Because regardless of which one is more correct, I can tell you right now one of those lines is going to repel people and one of those lines has played well with those very same groups.

    At some point you have to decide if you want to win or if you want to lose and be right. In 2016 the Democrats were right, and they lost. Hillary Clinton told all those people what was actually happening and that they needed to find ways to pivot, Trump lied and sold them a fantasy. There is no consolation prize for being the most correct loser.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Put plainly, Sanders(unless he winds up being the nominee) isn't going to be the issue.

    The issue is that Sanders having that many independents chipping into his campaign doesn't really point to that Dems have made a bunch of headway with increasing support among independents.

    If you have to count on Sanders' blessing to maybe wind up with the support of some of those independents, I'd say you are already starting out five or six steps back.
    I've said this before and I'll say it again, there's a fallacy that their is this mythical independent vote that lays in the very center of the spectrum between both parties. They think the goal is to shore up the base quickly so you can run right back to the center and fight that fight.

    What is lost in this is that the Democratic establishment and the Republican establishment have monopolized that center area. If you are a moderate or a centrist you already have an abundance of choice between the two parties. You have the Nancy Pelosi's and Clinton's on one end and the Romney's and Ryan's on the other. The country is skewed so obviously that is far apart, but there really aren't that many between those two factions that are going to have a tough time finding a party to stick with.

    Yet there are still independents and young people who don't turn out. They seem to really congregate around candidates who are to the far left or far right. More so the libertarian faction on the right (the Paul far right, not the Cruz far right) and the Democratic socialist far left.

  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Trump got the same amount of votes as Romney in WI. So it's not Obama voters. It was the idiots who didn't vote for Hillary, because her emails or "just don't like her" crap that are to blame. There was also the successful voter suppression effort .
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    My take? The WH gave Trump an out by saying the idea was fake news, but Trump didn't like being contradicted by his henchmen, so he went ahead and said it was true. Crazy shit.
    Here's what we all have to remember about Trump, which I've been saying a lot: Yes, Trump lies a lot, but occasionally he blurts out a disturbing truth. This is one of those times. He really is that stupid.

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Of course, Trump and white nationalist advisor Stephen Miller are hoping for violence from 'migrants' and that these cities and locales will be strained by them and will, he hopes, see an increase in racial tensions that will result in support for his policies.
    So, the objection is based on mind-reading?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    This is a deeply embarrassing post for you.
    How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    So Republicans aren't upset that their Republican Commander in Chief is telling people they can openly break the law and is threatening American citizens under a falsely declared National Emergency against brown and black immigrants just for the sake of pleasing his racist base?

    More importantly, we all know this is just a distraction from Barr and the Mueller report, Mets -- maybe you should discuss Trump and the Republican party's authoritarian and xenophobic attacks on democracy and people of color instead of pretending "open borders" is the problem with our current immigration system.

    "Democrats say we must have open borders and that illegal immigrants have a right to be in this country at all costs" -- Donald Trump

    You and your party have aligned yourself with a liar and it shows in your every post.
    You seem to be objecting to a different aspect of the policy than the one I asked about.

    But since you wish to dispute the idea that Democrats favor open borders, what clear upper limit do Democrats advocate for on immigration?

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Visa vi unfairly stripping people of their benefits --or at least those not so obvious that the media cant have a field day-- through manipulation of their internal scoring system and ignoring legitimate reasons for not turning up to meetings (Because funerals and hospitals are totally just casual things that can be rescheduled) leading to people dying in poverty or through excasperation of illness.

    Anecdotally I know a gentleman who (on their 1/10 scoring system with 3 being the average for minimum benefits) scored an 8 due to his very serious mental health issues and having a permanently damaged spine. He was told he was fit to work. He spent nearly a year in anxiety and frustration trying to scrape enough money together to live in his one bedroom flat, all the while navigating the Benefits system, after two appeals it finally went to court where the Judge laughed in the Benefits guys face and said "This man clearly deserves his money" and had the whole thing solved in 5 minuites.

    This has happened very often. The Benefits group essentially hopes that by using bureaucracy they can force people to not bother to fight for what they are owed.
    Do you think no efforts should be made to determine eligibility for financial benefits?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    Wow... I thought I was kidding, but you actually did only process the explanation in evilspeak.
    I think we talk past one another when we're not specific, so I prefer making assumptions to be made explicit, and frames of reference to be clear, because we come at things from a different perspective. Every time a liberal is wrong/ makes a bad argument it makes the reelection of President Trump likelier because it freaks out swing voters (and every time a conservative is wrong or articulates their views poorly, it makes the election of President Sanders because the conservative argument is tainted.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Here's something Bernie said that was unquestionably a good thing to say. The right thing to say.

    https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/st...55482038272000
    The suggestion that the only reason to be upset that a major member of Congress (she shared the cover of Rolling Stone with Nancy Pelosi) was dismissive about the murder of thousands ("some people did something") at an address to a controversial organization where she also said something factually inaccurate (CAIR was founded in 1994, not in response to post-9/11 Islamophobia) is because of hate and racism is not unquestionably good.

    Quote Originally Posted by heretic View Post
    The idea seems to be to punish those who vote for his enemies and/or diving the inhabitants of these cities aboard the Trump Train.

    Mind you, the fact that these are not violent boegymen and are not eligible to get public assistance even in the Sanctuary Cities means this is mostly to no avail, but I get the impression Trump does not even realize that.
    New York City is providing benefits and services for illegal immigrants, so some benefits are available.

    https://www.includenyc.org/resources...ted-immigrants

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ne...nts-2019-01-09

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Trump got the same amount of votes as Romney in WI. So it's not Obama voters. It was the idiots who didn't vote for Hillary, because her emails or "just don't like her" crap that are to blame. There was also the successful voter suppression effort .
    Trump also flipped Pennsylvania, and that state had a Democratic Governor.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Trump got the same amount of votes as Romney in WI. So it's not Obama voters. It was the idiots who didn't vote for Hillary, because her emails or "just don't like her" crap that are to blame. There was also the successful voter suppression effort .
    So the voters didn't participate in the 2016 elections rather than voting for either candidate. They just sat out of the election.

    There are some Democrats who did not trust Hillary. Jimmy Carter advised Obama not to take Hillary as his running mate. John Edwards suspected Hillary of leaking his extra-marital affair. She still could not win over Sanders supporters. Some Democratic voters voted for Jill Stein. Democrats were divided. Republicans were united not by Donald Trump but by their hatred of Hillary.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    Herman Cain knows that his role is to be window dressing for the Republican Party so that they can say that they're not racist because they like Herman Cain.
    True, Even Mr. Cain was skeptical about his own nomination to the federal reserve. Trump wants to hand over the keys to U.S. economy to a CEO of a pizza restaurant chain

    They think Mr. Cain is one of Trump's "yes" men.

  9. #84
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zetsubou View Post
    So the voters didn't participate in the 2016 elections rather than voting for either candidate. They just sat out of the election.

    There are some Democrats who did not trust Hillary. Jimmy Carter advised Obama not to take Hillary as his running mate. John Edwards suspected Hillary of leaking his extra-marital affair. She still could not win over Sanders supporters. Some Democratic voters voted for Jill Stein. Democrats were divided. Republicans were united not by Donald Trump but by their hatred of Hillary.
    Would you mind describing how much worse off you'd think we'd be if she'd been elected again?

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    You seem to be objecting to a different aspect of the policy than the one I asked about.

    But since you wish to dispute the idea that Democrats favor open borders, what clear upper limit do Democrats advocate for on immigration?

    Do you think no efforts should be made to determine eligibility for financial benefits?
    And you seem to be dodging the question I asked you directly.

    I think the "Democrats" have already shown they can handle immigration issues under Obama and there's no point in engaging in a rhetorical debate with you over false hypotheticals like "open borders" while your party is supporting a lying, corrupt, xenophobic authoritarian autocrat who threatens the very foundation of our democracy.

    So why don't you answer the questions for a change -- why aren't you and other Republicans doing more to stop Trump from abusing his power and pushing an openly racist agenda to appeal to the Republican "base"?

    You know there's no "National Emergency" so why do you look the other way while he openly lies in order to separate families at the border?

    And why is it okay for Trump to appoint Barr to the AG and then not release the full unredacted Mueller Report on Russian inteference to Congress?

    And why is it okay for your party to complain about deficits when the Democrats are in office but raise them to record levels once they get into power?

    And why do you support a party whose goal is to remove health care and reduce Social Security for millions of American citizens?

    Those are real problems Mets -- not some immigrant families at the border who are trying to better their lives by claiming asylum.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 04-13-2019 at 11:03 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post

    Do you think no efforts should be made to determine eligibility for financial benefits?
    Theres a difference between "Determining eligibility" and what the DWP did, which was very much intentional. When your ignoring Doctors because your corporate culture tells you to then you have to question what horrors the infinitly worse American system will generate.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    So, the objection is based on mind-reading?



    Trump also flipped Pennsylvania, and that state had a Democratic Governor.

    And there still, she only got 60,000 less than Obama in 2012. Trump increased the total vote over Romney by 300,000. All I am saying there wasn't this big group of Obama voters voting for Trump.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  13. #88
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Theres a difference between "Determining eligibility" and what the DWP did, which was very much intentional. When your ignoring Doctors because your corporate culture tells you to then you have to question what horrors the infinitly worse American system will generate.
    Mets is just being disingenuous again. Not for the Wall means you are for complete open borders. Not for draconian anti-disabled rules, you are for no oversight.

    Same old, same old.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    And you seem to be dodging the question I asked you directly.

    I think the "Democrats" have already shown they can handle immigration issues under Obama and there's no point in engaging in a rhetorical debate with you over false hypotheticals like "open borders" while your party is supporting a lying, corrupt, xenophobic authoritarian autocrat who threatens the very foundation of our democracy.

    So why don't you answer the questions for a change -- why aren't you and other Republicans doing more to stop Trump from abusing his power and pushing an openly racist agenda to appeal to the Republican "base"?

    You know there's no "National Emergency" so why do you look the other way while he openly lies in order to separate families at the border?

    And why is it okay for Trump to appoint Barr to the AG and then not release the full unredacted Mueller Report on Russian inteference to Congress?

    And why is it okay for your party to complain about deficits when the Democrats are in office but raise them to record levels once they get into power?

    And why do you support a party whose goal is to remove health care and reduce Social Security for millions of American citizens?

    Those are real problems Mets -- not some immigrant families at the border who are trying to better their lives by claiming asylum.
    Barr's summary is questionable at best, with the biggest clue (outside of him being a Trump appointee given the way Trump talks about Mueller) being that Barr didn't quote a single word from either the report or the summary that was provided to him. I'd imagine that Mueller's summary wouldn't include much, if any grand jury info, and was likely crafted so that it could be released to Congress or maybe even the general public unredacted. So, why hasn't Barr at least done that much? (I know, the answer is obvious, but it needs to be said out loud)
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  15. #90
    Incredible Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Does anyone else wake up every morning with a full anxiety attack brewing as you scan the day's headlines to see if a zealot has tried assassinating Pete Buttigieg? Or AOC? Or Ilhan Omar? I just...I know it's coming, because we live in the worst timeline, and all three of them are really going at the formerly unassailable bastions of Right Wing glory of faith, finance, and Israel.

    Pete is a 'filthy queer' (the nicest thing these false Christians say about him...) who dares to speak about Christianity like someone who has actually READ the New Testament, and no zealot is gonna be ok with THAT being president!

    AOC is an uppity brown woman that Faux News CANNOT STOP RAILING AGAINST, no matter how ridiculous they come across while doing so...

    And Ilhan Omar is a monster - sorry, a Muslim (same difference to those people...) - who wants to institute Sharia Law (unlike, I guess, the false Christians trying to conquer America from within in order to institute THEIR fundamentalist dogma as law...)!

    That's not to mention the anxiety that comes from dreading the next climate change bombshell that Republicans will ignore in the name of hoarding all the money, no matter the cost. Or the latest extinction. Or the newest religiously-motivated genocide. Or the latest atrocity from Russia and it's allies. Or the latest Republican defending rapists while trying to get laws in place to murder women who get an abortion, or...

    Every day, I wake up and my anxiety peaks before I even do anything. But no, things in America are GREAT....
    There is no such thing as an ethical Republican anymore. Period.

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