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  1. #901

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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    The thing is you are both right. If you take the Religious Right's point of view then Mets has a point, to them abortion is killing babies and then there really shouldn't be tolerance for it except in extreme situations where more than one life is at stake. If you take what I'm assuming is your point of view (and mine) that abortion is a very different thing than what Mets thinks it is, then limiting it the way Mets says becomes very problematic.

    The problem ultimately is that both sides have fundamentally different beliefs on what it actually is and you can't compromise on either. And because the right has stronger beliefs on it because of the severity of what they think it is.... they tend to vote on it more.

    I've never really seen the point in debating the abortion issue because it's such a clear and distinct difference of opinion that is the root of the debate that you either believe it or you don't and you aren't going to convince people
    There is a further complication in that there's often a focus on sides rather than the specific situation being discussed.

    I wasn't making any effort to persuade anyone against abortion. My main points were factual, addressing what another poster had said about the reasons for late-term abortion, analyzing the results of a study, and describing a particular label. But there is the view that if you're making any argument that favors one side, it should be a proxy for the larger topic.

    I'll note sensitive topics are often addressed fairly here. WestPhillyPunisher posted about a screw-up the New York Times made in its criticism of Trump (I know he doesn't care for Trump and I'm guessing he wants the mainstream media to go after Trump), and engaged with points on the topic on evidence that was against his "side". Malvolio was skeptical, but his focus was on the specific news item, rather than inferring that opposing a specific criticism of Trump meant agreement with his larger policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    I realized it as soon as I noticed the sunglasses on Trump, who wouldn't even wear shades when he looked at a solar eclipse. However, I don't see how the cartoon is antisemitic. It's anti-Netanyahu. Yes, he's wearing a Star of David, but would you suggest that an anti-Franklin Graham cartoon is anti-Christian just because it depicts him wearing a cross?
    If this is just about a politician and not about Judaism, why do they have Donald Trump wearing a skullcap?

  2. #902
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    William Barr Directs DOJ Official to Defy Congressional Subpoena to Testify About 2020 Census

    Attorney General William Barr directed a Justice Department official to defy a congressional subpoena to testify before a House committee, according to a letter obtained by Newsweek, a move that is likely to heighten the tension over the ongoing investigations of the Trump administration by Congress.

    Assistant Attorney General Stephen Boyd told the House Oversight and Reform Committee in a letter on Wednesday that John Gore, the principal deputy assistant attorney general for the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division, would not provide a deposition, which was scheduled for Thursday, regarding the Trump administration’s push to add a citizenship question to the 2020 census.

    The committee is investigating the administration's desire to include the question, as the Supreme Court has signaled it could approve the addition. Critics argue that a citizenship question would discourage millions of immigrants from completing a census, leading to skewed results.
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  3. #903
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    There is a further complication in that there's often a focus on sides rather than the specific situation being discussed.

    I wasn't making any effort to persuade anyone against abortion. My main points were factual, addressing what another poster had said about the reasons for late-term abortion, analyzing the results of a study, and describing a particular label. But there is the view that if you're making any argument that favors one side, it should be a proxy for the larger topic.
    I understand what you were saying. Yes the right tends to fundamentally disagree on what abortion is so there is no reasonable compromise. If you truly believe there is no difference between abortion and killing a baby in it's crib then there is no reasonable compromise you could make with someone who supports it. It's a belief thing. Either you believe it or you don't.

    And yes you are right, the argument of abortion being for life threatening instances or major health complications are not what is predominately the leading cause of abortion. I forget what the last statistics on it are but it's definitley consistently been something like 95% of abortions are unwanted pregancy and the remaining are some combination of rape/health complications. So even if you can find common ground on those instances, you would still only have worked a tiny sliver of the issue and still would have everyone fighting over slightly less than all that occur.

    Which is why I think it's just better for both sides to win where they can and let it play out because there is no compronise and you can't fundamentally change opinions like that.

  4. #904
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    so, What's happening with the N.R.A.? Looks like GOT right now. Is House of the Gun going to fall?

  5. #905
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogwen View Post
    so, What's happening with the N.R.A.? Looks like GOT right now. Is House of the Gun going to fall?
    Depends on what the state investigations into it turn up. If the NRA are charged with financial crimes or terrorism then yeah, they will probably fall hard. Anything less than that might give them wriggle room for a comeback.
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  6. #906
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    There is a further complication in that there's often a focus on sides rather than the specific situation being discussed.

    I wasn't making any effort to persuade anyone against abortion. My main points were factual, addressing what another poster had said about the reasons for late-term abortion, analyzing the results of a study, and describing a particular label. But there is the view that if you're making any argument that favors one side, it should be a proxy for the larger topic.

    I'll note sensitive topics are often addressed fairly here. WestPhillyPunisher posted about a screw-up the New York Times made in its criticism of Trump (I know he doesn't care for Trump and I'm guessing he wants the mainstream media to go after Trump), and engaged with points on the topic on evidence that was against his "side". Malvolio was skeptical, but his focus was on the specific news item, rather than inferring that opposing a specific criticism of Trump meant agreement with his larger policies.

    If this is just about a politician and not about Judaism, why do they have Donald Trump wearing a skullcap?
    Trump's daughter had a Jewish wedding. I would not be surprised if Trump wore a yarmulke in the Temple.

  7. #907
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    I understand what you were saying. Yes the right tends to fundamentally disagree on what abortion is so there is no reasonable compromise. If you truly believe there is no difference between abortion and killing a baby in it's crib then there is no reasonable compromise you could make with someone who supports it. It's a belief thing. Either you believe it or you don't.

    And yes you are right, the argument of abortion being for life threatening instances or major health complications are not what is predominately the leading cause of abortion. I forget what the last statistics on it are but it's definitley consistently been something like 95% of abortions are unwanted pregancy and the remaining are some combination of rape/health complications. So even if you can find common ground on those instances, you would still only have worked a tiny sliver of the issue and still would have everyone fighting over slightly less than all that occur.

    Which is why I think it's just better for both sides to win where they can and let it play out because there is no compronise and you can't fundamentally change opinions like that.
    We were specifically discussing abortions in the third trimester, the majority of which are done for the health of the mother, the lack of health of the fetus, or both.

  8. #908
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    We were specifically discussing abortions in the third trimester, the majority of which are done for the health of the mother, the lack of health of the fetus, or both.
    Never mind that some of what I've heard/seen is that some of the laws are specifically talking about an instance where the mother's health is at risk. The laws are not written so just anyone can get one.

  9. #909
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    https://www.yahoo.com/news/ocasio-co...184420581.html

    2 things about this article. Firstly, AOC was not necessarily saying that she had no tech available. Being away from tech could simply mean that she turned off her phone out of respect for her grandmother. Secondly, check out that pic of KellyAnne Conway. Looks like she's been biting her nails. I can't imagine why.

  10. #910
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    7 People Shot, 1 Killed At Cookout In West Baltimore

    BALTIMORE (WJZ) — Seven people were shot during a cookout Sunday afternoon in West Baltimore, police said.

    The cookout was on 2500 Edmonson Ave, police said. While it was near a Baptist church in the area, it has not been confirmed if it was connected in any way.

    One of the seven victims has died, police said.
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  11. #911
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Depends on what the state investigations into it turn up. If the NRA are charged with financial crimes or terrorism then yeah, they will probably fall hard. Anything less than that might give them wriggle room for a comeback.
    I’ve heard rumors that Wayne LaPierre’s head might be on the chopping block as well.
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  12. #912
    Horrific Experiment JCAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    I’ve heard rumors that Wayne LaPierre’s head might be on the chopping block as well.
    Who would have thought hiring a terrorist like Oliver North to be the president could have gone so badly for the NRA? /sarcasm

  13. #913

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    Trump's daughter had a Jewish wedding. I would not be surprised if Trump wore a yarmulke in the Temple.
    Why would this be relevant in an editorial cartoon in the New York Times International Edition about Trump's relationship with another world leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    We were specifically discussing abortions in the third trimester, the majority of which are done for the health of the mother, the lack of health of the fetus, or both.
    Do you have evidence to support this?

    I noted one study. Another piece of information came in a congressional report, quoted in the Washington Post.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-po...=.99083b597f2b

    A Congressional Research Service report published in April 2018 quoted Diana Greene Foster, the lead investigator on the study above and a professor at UCSF’s Bixby Center for Global Reproductive Health as saying “[t]here aren’t good data on how often later abortions are for medical reasons.”

    “Based on limited research and discussions with researchers in the field, Dr. Foster believes that abortions for fetal anomaly ‘make up a small minority of later abortion’ and that those for life endangerment are even harder to characterize,” the report stated.
    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    I understand what you were saying. Yes the right tends to fundamentally disagree on what abortion is so there is no reasonable compromise. If you truly believe there is no difference between abortion and killing a baby in it's crib then there is no reasonable compromise you could make with someone who supports it. It's a belief thing. Either you believe it or you don't.

    And yes you are right, the argument of abortion being for life threatening instances or major health complications are not what is predominately the leading cause of abortion. I forget what the last statistics on it are but it's definitley consistently been something like 95% of abortions are unwanted pregancy and the remaining are some combination of rape/health complications. So even if you can find common ground on those instances, you would still only have worked a tiny sliver of the issue and still would have everyone fighting over slightly less than all that occur.

    Which is why I think it's just better for both sides to win where they can and let it play out because there is no compronise and you can't fundamentally change opinions like that.
    It's worth noting that the pro-choice side can also get quite heated on the topic of abortion, since they think it's essential for gender equality.

    A lot of disagreements do come down to a belief that the stakes are high, and people will die/ fail to reach their potential if your side doesn't get its way, so I don't think we can function if all we're hoping for is a brief moment of total control of the political process. Compromise and common ground isn't always possible, but it is worth seeking.

  14. #914

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    On this date in 2015, 2016, 2017, as well as 2018, "Crazy/Stupid Republican of the Day" published profiles of Rebecca Kleefisch, who even as a reporter before entering politics, openly mocked the science behind climate change and chastised poor people for living in apartments while doing a story on lead abatement for living in a roach infested apartment for the “luxuries” they had, like a TV or brand-name speakers. In spite of surviving cancer, thanks in part to her husband’s medical insurance that he receives through the government as a state legislator, Kleefisch has gone on the warpath against the Affordable Care Act, and lied and said it would lead to “healthcare rationing”. Kleefisch has also rhetorically asked if the legalization of gay marriage would lead to people being able to marry their dogs, and rounds out her stupidity by first defending Paul Ryan by claiming you can’t even attempt to categorize rape, and then, seconds later in the same interview, starting to define rape as if it’s “forcible rape” or not. She is truly a couple tacos short of a combination plate.

    Kleefisch was rumored to be considering a run against U.S. Senator Tammy Baldwin for her seat in Washington, D.C., but apparently the momentum shown by Democrats in special elections scared her off of taking on the cagey incumbent, and instead, she’s ran for re-election as Lieutenant Governor for a third term, staying tethered to a man clearly made half of water, and half of vinegar (but all douche), Gov. Scott Walker. She spent most of the past few years being sent on trips outside of Wisconsin to try and lure manufacturers into relocating to Wisconsin, without any success, and there are whispers that even Scott Walker aides were lamenting that she’s continuing to try to stick to the governor’s ticket like a remora on a shark. Mercifully, both Kleefisch and Scott Walker were turfed out of office in 2018, which isn’t shocking, considering her main campaign strategy seemed to be to be as racist as possible and falsely accuse her African-American opponent, Mandela Barnes, of kneeling during the national anthem, Colin Kaepernick style, without any evidence.

    We wish Ms. Kleefisch the finest of “good riddance” greetings.
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  15. #915
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Barr Threatens To Snub House Judiciary Hearing Over Format Dispute, Sources Say

    The attorney general is scheduled to appear before the panel on Thursday, a day after he is to testify at a Senate committee hearing. Imagine if that happened with a Democrat in the Oval Office, Republicans would be screaming bloody murder about what Droopy Dog Barr threatens to do.

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    John Bolton Confirms U.S. Agreed To Pay North Korea $2 Million For Otto Warmbier

    The national security adviser claimed, however, that the U.S. never followed through with the payment. Hmm! Something tells me Johnny Warhawk probably lied out his ass about that.

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    Trump Blasted at Correspondents’ Dinner, His Attacks On Media Called Unpresidential

    The head of the White House Correspondents’ Association said his son asked him in tears, “Is Donald Trump going to put you in prison?” The hell of it is, if Trump thought he could jail journalists because they dared to criticize him, he would.

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    Trump Pushes Dangerous Abortion Lies At Wisconsin Rally

    The president falsely claimed Saturday that mothers and doctors discuss whether to “execute” a baby after it’s born, elevating dangerous anti-abortion rhetoric. And his dumber than dirt followers ate up that bullshit. It wouldn't shock me if that rhetoric spurs a few unbalanced loons to attack abortion providers down the road.

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    Pope Francis, Who Chided Trump’s Border Wall, Gives $500,000 To Migrants In Mexico

    The donation will go toward helping those fleeing Central American who have found the U.S. border “closed to them,” the Vatican said. I'm sure Dolt45 won't like being chided by the Pope....right after someone explains to him what being chided means.
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