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  1. #9556
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Luxemburg View Post
    Why should anyone wanting to vote for the candidate closest to the left, support someone that's to the right of Bernie?

    If you want to see if they would actually vote for a woman, run someone to the left of Bernie.
    Support whoever you want in the primary. Those of us who've seen this song and dance before know that that's not really what it's about.


    Misogyny exists everywhere.

    That's what it means to exist to a sexist world.

    This is why the "Bernie bros are sexist" angle is so meaningless. Of course they're sexist, they're men.

    If you want to get rid of misogyny, you have to dismantle patriarchy.
    MMmmn. I agree with you to an extent in principle, but this is more about people who are using Bernie as a vehicle to hide their misogyny under the veil of caring about 'leftist principles'.

  2. #9557
    Spectacular Member Rosa Luxemburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    MMmmn. I agree with you to an extent in principle, but this is more about people who are using Bernie as a vehicle to hide their misogyny under the veil of caring about 'leftist principles'.
    Well yeah, but that's another thing that's unavoidable as long as patriarchy exists.

    Bernie has supporters that try to excuse their sexism by saying they are still voting for someone running as a Dem, just as you supporters of other candidates that try to excuse their sexism by saying they are voting for a woman. It's a variation of the "I can't be racist, I voted for Obama" excuse.

    It's nothing new.

    Most people are always going to excuse their prejudices.
    Last edited by Rosa Luxemburg; 10-11-2019 at 10:04 PM.

  3. #9558
    Incredible Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Luxemburg View Post
    Well yeah, but that's another thing that's unavoidable as long as patriarchy exists.

    Bernie has supporters that try to excuse their sexism by saying they are still voting for someone running as a Dem, just as you supporters of other candidates that try to excuse their sexism by saying they are voting for a woman. It's a variation of the "I can't be racist, I voted for Obama" excuse.

    It's nothing new.

    Most people are always going to excuse their prejudices.
    I do not disagree with you. That doesn’t mean I plan to support a guy whose loudest supporters are only marginally less toxic than Trump’s.

    I like a lot of Jesus Christ’s teachings, too, but I will never be a Christian because of how his loudest supporters comport themselves. (And because I just don’t believe in any of the supernatural stuff associated with it, but that's less relevant to the discussion.)

    Excusing the misogyny of Bernie supporters because ‘everyone is misogynistic’ is an argument that I can’t really get behind, even as I agree 100% that misogyny is systemic and pernicious. I’m all for tearing down this broke ass system we are all suffering under. But I’m not keen to hand it over to Bernie Bros to rebuild things, given what I have seen of them.
    Last edited by zinderel; 10-11-2019 at 10:30 PM.

  4. #9559
    Spectacular Member Rosa Luxemburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    I do not disagree with you. That doesn’t mean I plan to support a guy whose loudest supporters are only marginally less toxic than Trump’s.

    I like a lot of Jesus Christ’s teachings, too, but I will never be a Christian because of how his loudest supporters comport themselves.

    Excusing the misogyny of Bernie supporters because ‘everyone is misogynistic’ is an argument that I can’t really get behind, even as I agree 100% that misogyny is systemic and pernicious. I’m all for tearing down this broke ass system we are all suffering under. But I’m not keen to hand it over to Bernie Bros to rebuild things, given what I have seen of them.
    Sexism should never be excused.

    What I'm saying is that focusing exclusively on the sexism of Bernie Sander supporters is pointless. Every candidate is going to have sexist supporters.

    Call them out, push them out, and raise the voices of people from marginalized group that make up his base. Want to do something about the sexism among his supporters? Raise the voices of the Bernie supporters that are anti-sexist. Want to do something about the racism among his supporters? Raise the voices of the Bernie supporters that are anti-racist.

    https://www.vox.com/2019/3/7/1821689...2020-president

    “We were criticized for being too white; that was a correct criticism,” Sanders said on the Breakfast Club radio show in March. “We were criticized for being too male; that was a correct criticism. That’s going to change.”

    It’s starting to. An analysis of recent polls from November of 2018 to March 2019 shows Sanders is more popular with people of color than white people, and women like Sanders as much as men do, if not more. He leads every other possible 2020 contender with Latino voters and lags behind only Joe Biden — who hasn’t announced a bid yet — with African-American voters. Sanders’ polling numbers with black voters are double that of Sen. Kamala Harris (D-CA), according to a March Morning Consult poll.
    Last edited by Rosa Luxemburg; 10-11-2019 at 10:40 PM.

  5. #9560
    Incredible Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Luxemburg View Post
    Sexism should never be excused.

    What I'm saying is that focusing exclusively on the sexism of Bernie Sander supporters is pointless. Every candidate is going to have sexist supporters.

    Call them out, push them out, and raise the voices of people from marginalized group that make up his base. Want to do something about the sexism among his supporters? Raise the voices of the Bernie supporters that are anti-sexist. Want to do something about the racism among his supporters? Raise the voices of the Bernie supporters that are anti-racist.

    https://www.vox.com/2019/3/7/1821689...2020-president
    THAT I agree with 100%.

  6. #9561
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Support whoever you want in the primary. Those of us who've seen this song and dance before know that that's not really what it's about.
    Again, this sort of thing doesn't really change a Warren's votes for Trump's military budgets.

    I'm fine with accepting that Warren will be moving "Right Center..." back to "Center..." While it's not really the vision I would want to back, I've got zero problem voting for it. That she has made those votes is something I can not be thrilled with and still vote for if it means supporting that she seemingly intends on trying to move things back to the center.

    If other folks point to those votes, they are not "Delusional..." It is a fact that Warren made them. If folks believe they can see into that guy's soul and what he "Actually..." believes, that's their call to make.

  7. #9562
    Incredible Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Again, this sort of thing doesn't really change a Warren's votes for Trump's military budgets.

    I'm fine with accepting that Warren will be moving "Right Center..." back to "Center..." While it's not really the vision I would want to back, I've got zero problem voting for it. That she has made those votes is something I can not be thrilled with and still vote for if it means supporting that she seemingly intends on trying to move things back to the center.

    If other folks point to those votes, they are not "Delusional..." It is a fact that Warren made them. If folks believe they can see into that guy's soul and what he "Actually..." believes, that's their call to make.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...zabeth-warren/

    11%. She has voted for 11% of Trump’s deals. And most she opposed until the bitter end. Stop over-simplifying to suit your narrative.

    Perfect is not the enemy of good. Warren is not perfect. But she is better than pretty much everyone else in a LOT of issues. And that is why people support her, Bernie supporters dealing in fearmongering and smear tactics against Warren - in the EXACT SAME WAY that you did with Hillary, sowing doubt and mistrust among the left based on lack of perceived perfection - is why people are turning away from him.
    Last edited by zinderel; 10-12-2019 at 12:31 AM.

  8. #9563
    Spectacular Member Rosa Luxemburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...zabeth-warren/

    11%. She has voted for 11% of Trumpís deals. And most she opposed until the bitter end. Stop over-simplifying to suit your narrative.

    Perfect is not the enemy of good. Warren is not perfect. But she is better than pretty much everyone else in a LOT of issues. And that is why people support her, Bernie supporters dealing in fearmongering and smear tactics against Warren - in the EXACT SAME WAY that you did with Hillary, sowing doubt and mistrust among the left based on lack of perceived perfection - is why people are turning away from him.
    Except Warren isn't part of the left. Bernie is barely left.

    Hillary was a solidly right-wing.

    The criticism of these candidates from the left, is to move people to the left.

    And we need to stop dismissing concerns about these candidates as people expecting perfection.

    Bernie's foreign policy is bad, Warren's is even worse. Both of them are going to kill people and ruin lives on a global scale, just as Obama did. Either directly through drone strikes, or by supplying weapons and aid to countries that will oppress and kill. Neither of them are going to stop the war machine.

    We should always be critical of politicians. Vote when the time comes, but never let up in criticizing them. These people are gunning for the most powerful position in the world, an inherently immoral position.

  9. #9564
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...zabeth-warren/

    11%. She has voted for 11% of Trumpís deals. And most she opposed until the bitter end. Stop over-simplifying to suit your narrative.

    Perfect is not the enemy of good. Warren is not perfect. But she is better than pretty much everyone else in a LOT of issues. And that is why people support her, Bernie supporters dealing in fearmongering and smear tactics against Warren - in the EXACT SAME WAY that you did with Hillary, sowing doubt and mistrust among the left based on lack of perceived perfection - is why people are turning away from him.
    Like we said, a number of voters who liked Warren only liked to use her as a way to declare they aren't sexist because they're not gonna vote for Hillary because Reasons, and now amazingly, those /same reasons/, just pained a little different, are now being marched out against Warren in favor of another old white guy or the other old white guy. It's almost like we all saw this 'pivot' coming, both widespread and here on this board, and were not even slightly surprised. It has nothing to do with leftism in most cases.

  10. #9565
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Luxemburg View Post
    And we need to stop dismissing concerns about these candidates as people expecting perfection.
    That is not at all what's happening here.

  11. #9566
    Spectacular Member Rosa Luxemburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    That is not at all what's happening here.
    The criticism I'm seeing of Warren here is that she voted for Trump's military budget. The response is that she's not perfect.

  12. #9567
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...zabeth-warren/

    11%. She has voted for 11% of Trump’s deals. And most she opposed until the bitter end. Stop over-simplifying to suit your narrative.

    Perfect is not the enemy of good. Warren is not perfect. But she is better than pretty much everyone else in a LOT of issues. And that is why people support her, Bernie supporters dealing in fearmongering and smear tactics against Warren - in the EXACT SAME WAY that you did with Hillary, sowing doubt and mistrust among the left based on lack of perceived perfection - is why people are turning away from him.
    In the article that someone threw "Delusional..." at, folks(I believe two of them were women) pointed out that they don't trust the Democratic Party.

    If you are voting for even ten percent of what Trump is doing, how are you easing those concerns(even if they might be a a little overblown)?

    Some people's "Good Enough"(heck, I can live with it) still isn't going calm the doubts of some people. It just doesn't do any good to start throwing "Delusional..." around, when folks are pointing to actual votes that Warren has taken.

    Edit: That said, it did look like they guy was taking Warren to task just for sitting down with HRC. "Whatever" with that bit. That is just a nonsensical shot just to take one.
    Last edited by numberthirty; 10-12-2019 at 01:06 AM.

  13. #9568
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Just so it's out there, here is that part of the article...

    Yanette Rivera describes herself as a stay at home mom in Pennsylvania. She supports Sanders. And to her, it's also Bernie or bust. "I don't trust any other candidate to do what I want of a president," Rivera tells Newsweek.

    "And I can't vote for any of them in the general cause I can't trust the media to keep them accountable to the public, unlike with Trump. With Trump even those that don't pay attention must and do. It shouldn't be that way but it is."

    Rhonda, who did not give her surname, is a utility company worker in Michigan who loved Warren at one point but now feels let down by her. So much so that if Warren wins the race, "I cannot muster up the strength to vote for her," she tells Newsweek.

    "I cannot vote for Trump, but it would take every ounce of my strength and being to cast that vote for Warren. I feel Elizabeth Warren is a vital component of the DNC machine; the same machine built to reserve the fortunes for the wealthy and keep the poor in their place."

    Rhonda is middle class and her household brings in more than $100,000 a year. But the family is in "substantial debt" because of medical bills. Her three daughters are also already in debt. She had to park her own dreams of going to college because it was too expensive.

    She described Warren's plans for the likes of health care and student debt as "half-hearted and full of conditions. She is fickle and she is untrustworthy. Warren takes corporate donations, how could I trust her?"

    "I do not think I could vote for Warren; I will not vote for her. She cannot beat Trump. He will eat her alive in debates," she added.

  14. #9569
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Just so it's out there, here is that part of the article...
    Gee. More Bernie or bust nonsense. Just what everyone wants and needs while the right-wing is stacking the federal courts with lifetime appointments enough to block whatever magical majority-passed legislation you think your militancy is going to win over.

    I have plenty of respect for effective militancy, especially in social justice movements, but this ain't it.

    (It's kinda funny that Bernie's trump score is higher than Warren's and he has voted for Trump's budgets as well.)
    Last edited by Tendrin; 10-12-2019 at 01:22 AM.

  15. #9570
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Gee. More Bernie or bust nonsense. Just what everyone wants and needs while the right-wing is stacking the federal courts with lifetime appointments enough to block whatever magical majority-passed legislation you think your militancy is going to win over.

    I have plenty of respect for effective militancy, especially in social justice movements, but this ain't it.
    Ignoring that those sorts of voters were out there has already played a role in getting the country into that position.

    I'm just saying that trying to sweep them under the rug(even if I can't agree with everything they are saying) isn't the smartest play.

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