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  1. #106
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    And now a word from the president apparently.



    This can't be real... can it? Please confirm to me this isn't real, because it feels real.
    Remember kids, if you ever have a conversation with a Trump, make sure you record it. For no other reason than to prevent him from insisting that an entirely different version of the conversation happened instead.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  2. #107
    Incredible Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I'll answer question 1 from my perspective. From what I can find out it isn't just a question of selling someone a cake, but of making a specialty cake for them. This is moving towards a blurry line about where art begins and what counts as it. I think the owner in question has said he'd sell any couple a standard cake (correct me if I am wrong here), but he won't make a unique one for gay couples. I'm not sure where food can qualify as art in a legal sense, but we approaching the line where it can be construed that by requiring such can be requiring speech rather than just forbidding discrimination. I don't live there and would be unlikely to buy anything even if I did - I avoid certain places to eat because I disagree with their politics and/or business practices (I won't go to Chik-fil-a or Jimmy John's) - but I also can't say what the alternatives are for a LGBT couple that wants a cake. But that sums up the question at the heart of this - are we merely banning discrimination or have we crossed the line into compelling speech?

    Aaand I probably should have quoted Mets for this....
    No, I get you. However, I want to point out that if they operate a business specializing in wedding cakes, and then deny that service to someone for an inherent trait, that is discrimination and is illegal. Much worse if they are the only bakery in the area, as has happened in many small town situations. This Baker situation is, as I see it, not much different than denying service because of skin color, or racial heritage, or religious affiliation. If discriminating against gay people is ok when those other things are not, then we are saying that gay people are second class citizens, and that is profoundly un-American. And un-Christian, to boot.

    In many cases, the decision to deny service comes after initial discussions and payments are made. If they openly stated their bigotry, by say...putting up a sign that said 'We don't bake cakes for queers. God told us not to' that would solve a lot of problems. Everyone who bought a cake from them would know they are discriminatory douchebags hiding behind religion to excuse their bigotry, no one of conscience would patronize them, and they could bake only godly, Jesus-centric cakes for straights, like the Bible intended.

    MANY of those bakers have been exposed as bigots by newspapers and journalists - and bloggers - calling and ordering cakes for divorce parties, witch gatherings, and other 'sinful' things and most of those bakers were fine with making those cakes. It was ONLY the gay wedding cakes they objected to, and thus, it isn't about artistic license, or inspiration. It is about bigotry against gay people, and using Jesus as an excuse to hide behind.

    That said, I would never want to force an artist to create art under duress. But I stand behind forcing businessmen to follow the laws, if they intend to stay in business. So...
    Last edited by zinderel; 04-13-2019 at 07:37 PM.

  3. #108
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    Religious bigotry is a problem especially in a society of multiple religions. I am living in a society of different faiths and am already used to the sloppiness of religious tolerance.

    But a professional businessman must learn to never mix business with religion or politics. When Ben & Jerry ice cream company publicly supported the Black Lives Matter movement, the police unions boycotted Ben & Jerry's products.

  4. #109
    Incredible Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zetsubou View Post
    Religious bigotry is a problem especially in a society of multiple religions. I am living in a society of different faiths and am already used to the sloppiness of religious tolerance.

    But a professional businessman must learn to never mix business with religion or politics. When Ben & Jerry ice cream company publicly supported the Black Lives Matter movement, the police unions boycotted Ben & Jerry's products.
    Religious bigotry IS a problem. And it is a problem with very clear perpetrators - white, 'Christian' men in nearly every case - that are NOT the victims of bigotry themselves. Look at how many black churches get burned in America still, or all the horrific defacements at Jewish cemeteries, the shootings at mosques, the spread of lies about Judaism and Islam, not to mention other non-Christian faiths, at the hands of 'Christian' pastors and prea hers and talking heads, or the way Muslim politicians in America get treated by supposedly 'Christian' ones.

    More important than religious bigotry, though, is bigotry protected and encouraged by religious fervor. When your religion dehumanizes others, when your religion wants to get away with breaking laws - or creating laws - in order to freely abuse other citizens based on one interpretation of religious dogma, when your religion, the dominant religion of the nation, preaches conquest, hatred, blatant lies, and the eradication of all other faiths, that religion becomes a problem to be addressed.

    WHATEVER THAT RELIGION IS.

    That isn't bigotry against your religion, that is society saying rightly that your religion is toxic and has no place in the civilized world the rest of us are trying to live in. Many, MANY Christian's draw inspiration from Christ's teachings about community, love, justice, hope and support. They are not the issue, nor are they who I speak against when I rail about American, Christian excess and evil. Don't use your religion to justify bigotry or law-breaking, and it's not a problem to me what God or gods you worship.

    Also...

    How is 'Black Lives Matter' tied to religious bigotry? And what a shock that police unions boycotted someone criticizing their regular murdering of unarmed black men and the subsequent coverup and attempts to cast innocent men as 'thugs' or criminals. That freedom to murder black men is why Black Lives Matter started, and Ben & Jerry are doing just fine without the money of corrupt murderers and bullies, and the people that make excuses for them.

    Are there good, non-racist cops? Absolutely! There are many, maybe even most! But they are part of a system that demonizes victims, abuses it's power, closes ranks to protect corruption, and creates class traitors who turn on and police their own neighbors in order to protect the rich from the poor rising up.

    #ACAB isn't about literally all cops being bastards to a one. It is about the corruption inherent in the system, and judging those who take part in that corrupt system for doing so.
    Last edited by zinderel; 04-13-2019 at 08:42 PM.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zetsubou View Post
    Religious bigotry is a problem especially in a society of multiple religions. I am living in a society of different faiths and am already used to the sloppiness of religious tolerance.

    But a professional businessman must learn to never mix business with religion or politics. When Ben & Jerry ice cream company publicly supported the Black Lives Matter movement, the police unions boycotted Ben & Jerry's products.
    Depends on the company.

    -----
    "Nike sales booming after Colin Kaepernick ad, invalidating critics"

    ""I believe the consumer wants brands to take a stand on social issues," Matt Powell, senior sports industry advisor for market research firm The NPD Group, told ABC News. "The core consumer for Nike is a teen male, it's likely they were going to respond positively. As opposed to a decade ago, a brand has to be transparent."

    When Dick's Sporting Goods banned sales of assault-style guns after the Parkland, Florida shooting, it was similarly threatened with boycotts.

    Powell tweeted the news, and for every 100 people who reacted positively, only one reacted negatively, he said. "Only one person said, 'I won’t buy anything from them in response to their stance.' There certainly seemed to be a lot of support," he said.

    "A decade ago, conventional wisdom was brands kept that kind of view quiet, and now brands are forced to take a position," Powell added.

    Davis attributed the shift to corporations taking cultural or political stances at least in part due to the rise of social media and the detailed data it provides about customers.

    "Companies that live and die by their brands like Nike are doing much more tracking," Davis said.

    "They've got a very good handle on who their consumers are and they have a much stronger sense" of how people will react, he added. "There is no neutral ground anymore."

    A decade or two ago, brands relied on in-person focus groups, but now social media allows brands to monitor customers minute by minute, Davis said. "Nike has such a strong sense of who their consumers are."

    https://abcnews.go.com/Business/nike...ry?id=59957137

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    Religious bigotry IS a problem. And it is a problem with very clear perpetrators - white, 'Christian' men in nearly every case - that are NOT the victims of bigotry themselves. Look at how many black churches get burned in America still, or all the horrific defacements at Jewish cemeteries, the shootings at mosques, the spread of lies about Judaism and Islam, not to mention other non-Christian faiths, at the hands of 'Christian' pastors and prea hers and talking heads, or the way Muslim politicians in America get treated by supposedly 'Christian' ones.

    More important than religious bigotry, though, is bigotry protected and encouraged by religious fervor. When your religion dehumanizes others, when your religion wants to get away with breaking laws - or creating laws - in order to freely abuse other citizens based on one interpretation of religious dogma, when your religion, the dominant religion of the nation, preaches conquest, hatred, blatant lies, and the eradication of all other faiths, that religion becomes a problem to be addressed.

    WHATEVER THAT RELIGION IS.

    That isn't bigotry against your religion, that is society saying rightly that your religion is toxic and has no place in the civilized world the rest of us are trying to live in. Many, MANY Christian's draw inspiration from Christ's teachings about community, love, justice, hope and support. They are not the issue, nor are they who I speak against when I rail about American, Christian excess and evil. Don't use your religion to justify bigotry or law-breaking, and it's not a problem to me what God or gods you worship.
    .
    The arsonist who burned black churches was not a Christian but a pagan Norse worshiper who was actively interested in the Black Metal music band that burned Norwegian Christian churches and murdered a gay man in Norway . He said, "I only truly follow the law of Odin".

    The Norwegian black metal scene was bitterly opposed to Christianity.

    The Christians are not the only religion that hates gays. Muslims hate gays. Norwegian Black metal hates gays. Read the news about the Murder of Magne Andreassen

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_...ck_metal_scene

  7. #112
    Incredible Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zetsubou View Post
    The arsonist who burned black churches was not a Christian but a pagan Norse worshiper who was actively interested in the Black Metal music band that burned Norwegian Christian churches and murdered a gay man in Norway . He said, "I only truly follow the law of Odin".

    The Norwegian black metal scene was bitterly opposed to Christianity.

    The Christians are not the only religion that hates gays. Muslims hate gays. Norwegian Black metal hates gays. Read the news about the Murder of Magne Andreassen

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_...ck_metal_scene
    Obviously, you missed where I said 'nearly every case'.

    Or maybe you are arguing the likelihood that he, being white man born in America, was likely raised in a Christian church/family/community that, like so many others, masked lessons on bigotry behind religious lessons. I was raised in that kind of church. And for years after I got out, I clung to the ignorance and stupidity they had taught me about gay people, people of color, and women.

    That this young man is currently a pagan who misinterprets Odin and Norse mythology as badly as most fundamentalist Christians misinterpret the teachings of Jesus does nothing to lessen the decades of black church burnings by white American 'Christians' in the KKK and other related groups. Unless your theory is that Norwegian death metal pagans have been burning churches in America since before the Civil War? Do you think that there is a secret cult of Norwegian death metal enthusiasts hiding among the very public branch of Christianity that calls for the death, torture and erasure of gay people, and has a massively imbalanced grip on political and legal power in America? Or do you think that Mike and Karen Pence, Robert Jeffress, Pat Robertson, Tony Perkins, and the rest of them - whether in government or in the orbit of those who ARE - are secret Muslims, using their widely publicized Christian fanaticism as a misdirection to enact Sharia law and kill all the gays?


    No? Ok. So then you agree that Muslims and Norwegian death metal fans are not a problem in the same way white, Christian males are. Nor is Norwegian death metal fandom or Fundamentalist Islamic terrorists disguised as young female politicians a prevalent concern in America.

    White supremacists emboldened by Christian nationalism are the most extant problem in America, both in terms of the general public AND in terms of violent acts perpetrated on American soil. The unique form of racial animus present in America was exacerbated and fueled by Christian sects who used the Bible to justify chattel slavery, abuse, and forced separation of families. That same animus has continued to fuel 'Irish Need Not Apply' mindsets, anti-Chinese violence, anti-Muslim violence, anti-gay and trans rhetoric and violence, and more. Do other groups hate gay people? Of course. I would have to be blind to deny that reality, which is why I do not. Instead, I focus on the actual existential threats to my and my loved ones' well being.

    And, despite how badly you and people like you have tried over the years to convince us otherwise and make this topic impossible to address openly, that threat is not the boogeyman of burkhas and Sharia law and thrashing guitar licks. Not disaffected young people finding strength in violent, hateful black metal that they can't find elsewhere. Those things ARE problems, sure, and I'll admit that happily, but they are not the sole, or even primary problem facing America today the way that willful ignorance and horrific bigotry have been inculcated in 'Christian' churches and circles, and have merged with white nationalism to create an unrecognizable bastardization of Jesus' teachings that is only called 'Christianity' because that is what they call themselves.
    Last edited by zinderel; 04-13-2019 at 10:03 PM.

  8. #113
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Just to go back to nuclear power vs. other types for a moment...

    While nuclear is seemingly cheaper, just about anyone can tell that comes with what is potentially an incredibly high price.

    Can't see what the argument for going the cheapest possible route is once you factor reality in.

  9. #114
    Incredible Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Just to go back to nuclear power vs. other types for a moment...

    While nuclear is seemingly cheaper, just about anyone can tell that comes with what is potentially an incredibly high price.

    Can't see what the argument for going the cheapest possible route is once you factor reality in.
    Yeah, that's pretty much my point. Sure, it's cheaper than switching to solar/wind/hydro in the short run. Sure it's 'safer' than fossil fuels - as long as everything runs perfectly and goes off without a hitch, that is - but the long term risks of nuclear energy and waste are also a thing that proponents of nuclear energy regularly fail to address.

    Not to mention that fossil fuels generally took years of buildup before their impact on the the globe is felt. But a leak in a coolant tower has permanently affected the entire planet in a matter of moments...several times over, now...
    Last edited by zinderel; 04-13-2019 at 10:10 PM.

  10. #115
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    The cooption of norse religion by racists is a sad thing indeed but has long roots dating back decades. It in no way makes them less right wing extremist pscyhopaths, though.

  11. #116
    Incredible Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    The cooption of norse religion by racists is a sad thing indeed but has long roots dating back decades. It in no way makes them less right wing extremist pscyhopaths, though.
    Amen. Here in Portland, I've been seeing some cooption of Celtic religion and mythology into white supremacy too and I just...want to grab them and shake them and remind them that once, us Irish folk weren't 'white' enough, either!!

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    He hasn't said anything about what kind of oversight he would support.

    He has suggested that one thing will lead to another type of bad oversight, the effects of which he seems to have grossly exaggerated (unless 100,000+ people have died over the course of several years as a direct result of policies that go against the disabled; Debkox linked to one result that 100,000+ ESA claims were closed following the deaths of claimants which may be where the number comes from but this doesn't mean that the requests for information contributed to all those deaths.)

    What would you consider acceptable efforts to determine eligibility?

    We might largely be on the same page on this, against bad oversight when it comes to disability benefits, but in favor of some form of oversight.
    I suggested that Mets because (to be frank) Americas corporate system is a hell of a lot worse then here in the UK. Half the shit you guys do we'd never wven consider. So if 100,000 is what we can do, you guts will easily overshoot it.

    As for what kind of oversight I'd support ? Well how about listening to a fucking doctor? That'd be a good start. Only employ trained medical professionals for these assesments if you can since a bureaucrat cant even begin to understand half the issues some people have.

    Secondly make it as neutral as possible, as soon as a guy with an R next to his name becomes president you shouldn't have the system suddenly try to scrape every bit of cash it can by denying seriously ill people their money.

    I think the issue at core though is the same conservative talk piece though about the terror of the "Leech like benefits cheat" rather then the more realistic issue of "Rich people and companies that dont pay their tax". Apple or Amazon alone easily dwarf any number of benefits cheats.

  13. #118
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Starting from a place of believing people and their doctors is probably smart.

  14. #119
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Does any cost/benefit analysis of nuclear power include how much it costs to keep nuclear waste safe from stuff like terrorists and earthquakes for 80,000 years? It seems like borrowing money from our ancestors to consider it "cheap" in any way. And the measures taken to protect it for tens of thousands of years also don't come without a carbon footprint.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

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  15. #120
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    Progressive political figures targeted by assassins:
    Lincoln (succeeded)
    JFK (succeeded)
    Bobby Kennedy (succeeded)
    MLK (succeeded)
    Roosevelt (failed)
    Harvey Milk (succeeded)
    Gabby Giffords (failed)
    Bill Clinton (failed)
    Vernon Jordan (failed)
    Larry Flynt (failed)
    Harry Truman (failed)
    John Purroy Mitchel (failed)
    William Jay Gaynor (failed)
    William H. Seward (failed)


    Conservative political figures targeted by assassins:
    Garfield (succeeded)
    McKinley (succeeded)
    Ronald Reagan (failed)
    Steve Scalise (failed)
    George W Bush (failed)
    Donald Trump (failed)
    Dick Cheney (failed)
    Gerald Ford (failed)
    Richard Nixon (failed)
    Andrew Jackson (failed)
    George Wallace (failed)
    A. Mitchell Palmer (failed)

    Success rate: Dead progressive figures - 5/14
    Dead conservative figures - 2/12

    So yeah, progressives have more to fear from potential assassins than conservatives, based on actual history and factual events. And when one looks at WHY various figures were targeted, one finds progressives mostly being targeted for their race, their support of social justice causes, for trying to clean up the police force, for trying to move America forward, socially.

    Meanwhile, conservatives get targeted because of policy decisions that hurt people, and that tends to make people angry enough to want to kill...

    But sure, I mean...yeah, 'both sides' and all that...
    You forgot to include U.S. Representative Maxine Waters, U.S. Senators Kamala Harris and Cory Booker, former U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, two former intelligence chiefs (ex-CIA Director John O. Brennan and ex-Director of National Intelligence James Clapper), billionaires George Soros and Tom Steyer, and Robert Fucking DeNiro, who were all targeted for assassination with mail bombs by a Trump supporter.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

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