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  1. #1276
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimmerian View Post
    There’s also the fact that Trump wrote a book about this 20 years ago (The Art of the Comeback). Which was praised by the very same New York Times.

    They’re reaching for absolutely anything.
    Don't believe we are really on the same page here.

    I'm suggesting that I don't really accept that the numbers are on the level. To me, they are likely one more lie from a guy who lies about his numbers almost every time. While that he might have lost a boatload of money could be completely on the level, it could be just one more scam from a guy that has certainly been involved in scams.

  2. #1277
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Trump administration seeks to target nationwide injunctions

    https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-...e-injunctions/

    Vice President Mike Pence said Wednesday that the Trump administration intends to try to challenge the right of federal district courts to issue nationwide injunctions.

    In a speech at the Federalist Society conference in Washington, Pence argued that nationwide injunctions issued by federal judges “prevent the executive branch from acting, compromising our national security by obstructing the lawful ability of the president to stop threats to the homeland where he sees them.”

    He said the administration will seek opportunities to put this question before the Supreme Court “to ensure that decisions affecting every American are made either by those elected to represent the American people or by the highest court in the land.”

    Top administration officials have often complained about the proliferation of nationwide injunctions since Trump became president on issues ranging from immigration to health care, so the idea of pushing back is not new.

  3. #1278

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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    I watched a pretty interesting video on Youtube the other day that suggests that the "connected world" (internet, social media, etc) actually serves to placate people and operates counter to the way most millennials and post-millennials believe it does. They cited access to global media in general going back to the cold war as means to quiet social unrest.

    Essentially, feeling connected to a global community gives people either an outlet for aggression or provides escapism. When communities feel more isolated they are more prone to lash out physically.

    Apparently, and I didn't know this, a lot of the much discussed "arab spring" really happened once access to the internet was shut down, so all those hashtags didn't really have much to do with anything after the initial stages.

    All that said, I'm not sure what effective protest looks like in this day and age. It's very easy to "hack" a protest due to the spread of misinformation and atomized interests. I'd imagine it's still a process in development, or even a synthesis of everything that came before (which is typical). I don't think 1960s style radicalism, in itself, would be effective either since everyone already knows that playbook.
    People feeling connected to the global community is a good thing, no?


    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Only to you and others who benefit from denying the truth about Trump and your party as a whole, as the other article pointed out in detail.

    "Plausible deniability" doesn't apply here Mets -- the guy actively defends and retweets Nazis and white supremacists.


    Money and power -- even at the cost of the rule of law and democracy itself.

    Would be interesting to see what the unredacted report might have to say about the recent election contributions from the Russians to the Republican party -- which is one reason I'm sure they don't want it released to the House Democrats, much less the general public.

    -----
    "How Putin's oligarchs funneled millions into GOP campaigns"

    "As Special Counsel Robert Mueller's team probes deeper into potential collusion between Trump officials and representatives of the Russian government, investigators are taking a closer look at political contributions made by U.S. citizens with close ties to Russia.

    Buried in the campaign finance reports available to the public are some troubling connections between a group of wealthy donors with ties to Russia and their political contributions to President Donald Trump and a number of top Republican leaders. And thanks to changes in campaign finance laws, the political contributions are legal. We have allowed our campaign finance laws to become a strategic threat to our country.

    An example is Len Blavatnik, a dual U.S.-U.K. citizen and one of the largest donors to GOP political action committees in the 2015-16 election cycle. Blavatnik's family emigrated to the U.S. in the late '70s from the U.S.S.R. and he returned to Russia when the Soviet Union began to collapse in the late '80s.

    Data from the Federal Election Commission show that Blavatnik's campaign contributions dating back to 2009-10 were fairly balanced across party lines and relatively modest for a billionaire. During that season he contributed $53,400. His contributions increased to $135,552 in 2011-12 and to $273,600 in 2013-14, still bipartisan.

    In 2015-16, everything changed. Blavatnik's political contributions soared and made a hard right turn as he pumped $6.35 million into GOP political action committees, with millions of dollars going to top Republican leaders including Sens. Mitch McConnell, Marco Rubio and Lindsey Graham..."

    https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/c...-gop-campaigns
    Whether an idea is fringe is based on how many people believe it. Obviously, some fringe ideas are accurate. However, we can't take it for granted that others believe it, or be frustrated they haven't reached the same conclusion.

    Do you think when Mueller testifies to the House, he'll say that major parts of the report dealing with Russian connections to political donations were redacted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cimmerian View Post
    There’s also the fact that Trump wrote a book about this 20 years ago (The Art of the Comeback). Which was praised by the very same New York Times.

    They’re reaching for absolutely anything.
    If it were true, it wouldn't be meaningful. A book review decades ago doesn't cover fully what we know now, and represents the opinion of one person, rather than a larger editorial position.

    The book itself also wasn't praised in the New York Times review. The review starts with "It is odd that an impresario whose projects are noted for unabashed excitement has produced such an ungripping account of recovery from the brink of ruin."

    https://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/14/b...ultPosition=18


    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Did someone seriously say the guy who retweets white nationalists and called them 'very fine people' being a white nationalist himself is a 'bit fringe'? The same guy who was sued for being racist in housing policies?

    Huh. How about that.
    I am unaware of Trump referring to white nationalists as "very fine" people. He did explicitly say that white nationalists should be condemned totally.

    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...sides-remarks/

    As for whether retweets establish him as a white nationalist, it depends on what he retweeted. Racist housing policies is a problem but equating it with white nationalism is inaccurate.

    Trump's a bad enough President that his critics don't need to make stuff up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kusanagi View Post
    How come we just ignore Trump was the face of the birther movement for several years. Just watching him accuse Obama of not being American should be more than enough for anyone with common sense.
    That was wrong, but not necessarily white nationalist.

  4. #1279
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    People feeling connected to the global community is a good thing, no?
    It depends. The argument is that because of the sheer amount of data available it's easier to find a "global community" that serves atomized interests i.e. echo chambers. Additionally, some people have access to information but haven't developed the skills to think critically, or properly source what they read.

    "Virtual connectedness" allows for complacency. The example the video used was people closer to the west, specifically western media broadcasts, during the cold war got a taste of life on the other side of the wall and we're generally more complacent under communism then people who didn't have access Western media, who just had to deal with the general sh***ness of it with no outlet.
    Last edited by Things Fall Apart; 05-08-2019 at 04:20 PM.
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  5. #1280
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCAll View Post
    People have been protesting. Filling the streets by the thousands, picketing buildings, boycotting businesses, holding signs and shouting protest for the whole world to hear. They've been doing that constantly all across the country for years. You know what it got them? Dick!

    The people being protested just have so much money, so much power, and so few shits to give that they can not only sit out any protest but can take control of the narrative to make themselves the victim and the protestors a violent anti-American mob. How many times have we seen that happen?

    Since most of us are against throwing Molotovs or electing Madame Guillotine, we need to find a new way. Yeah, social media activism isn't working either, but at least people are trying something.
    Honestly, I think temporarily causing a media blackout or hijacking various media streams would be the best way to do it.

    Sit-ins, marches, etc worked in the past because they inconvenienced people.

    Televised riots and carrying the bodies home from Vietnam worked because of a media bottleneck in the form of network TV.

    So, to get the same effect now, cause a bottleneck and funnel it to a pirate stream. Everyone is on the internet or checking Facebook. Take that away or Max Headroom their feed, even if its only temporarily.
    Last edited by Things Fall Apart; 05-08-2019 at 04:18 PM.
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  6. #1281
    Horrific Experiment JCAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    So, Amy Klobuchar is doing a Fox News Town Hall almost identical to the one Sanders did a while back.

    What's not identical?

    The talk about how it kneecaps the party. The talk about how her doing it undercuts a united Democratic Party front.

    Not exactly a shock, but worth noting.
    Might be because nobody heard about it or knows who she is. Sanders is a big name and his townhall was highly publicized, Klobuchar is a name only known to the kind of people that spend their evenings on political forums. Or maybe it's just that Sanders showed you can go on Fox News without being drowned out by conspiracy theories and hate mongering. Things are always easier when you know they're possible.

  7. #1282
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Also, I don't really think most people think of Klobuchar as anything but an also-ran.
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  8. #1283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Whether an idea is fringe is based on how many people believe it. Obviously, some fringe ideas are accurate. However, we can't take it for granted that others believe it, or be frustrated they haven't reached the same conclusion.
    I'm not "frustrated" about anything, Mets, so stop projecting -- at this point I'm used to your use of "slippery slope" arguments only when it serves your purpose (immigration, abortion, gerrymandering, etc), and arguments of "plausible deniability" whenever the facts aren't in your favor, especially on matters of white supremacy and the like within the Republican party.

    Which is why I (repeatedly) say it's useless to "debate" you -- I was just pointing out that Trump is not a "weird centrist" as you try to claim. He is a corrupt far-right race-baiting demogogue -- one your party has ushered into power and now defends at every turn to the detriment of our nation as a whole.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-08-2019 at 04:55 PM.

  9. #1284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    Honestly, I think temporarily causing a media blackout or hijacking various media streams would be the best way to do it.

    Sit-ins, marches, etc worked in the past because they inconvenienced people.

    Televised riots and carrying the bodies home from Vietnam worked because of a media bottleneck in the form of network TV.

    So, to get the same effect now, cause a bottleneck and funnel it to a pirate stream. Everyone is on the internet or checking Facebook. Take that away or Max Headroom their feed, even if its only temporarily.
    I think too many people are still waiting on that singular watershed moment that will change everything for the better. Democrats need to learn from the Republicans and start playing the long game, training up people to be professional agitators with a lifelong commitment to their cause, not a bunch of milquetoast dilettantes who go through an activist phase in youth but assume that winning one election means their job is done. I'm not sure if this is really possible though, the reason the GOP is so committed to their policies is precisely because they know that they didn't earn any of what they currently have and so they must abandon all principle and do whatever it takes to preserve their privileges, whereas too many liberals are still deluded enough to believe that they can beat the system with clever thinking and positivity, despite all the evidence to the contrary. One of the worst things that could happen is if the Democrats manage to beat Trump in 2020 with some lame moderate candidate, so that everyone can believe that everything is fine again.

  10. #1285
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCAll View Post
    People have been protesting. Filling the streets by the thousands, picketing buildings, boycotting businesses, holding signs and shouting protest for the whole world to hear. They've been doing that constantly all across the country for years. You know what it got them? Dick!

    The people being protested just have so much money, so much power, and so few shits to give that they can not only sit out any protest but can take control of the narrative to make themselves the victim and the protestors a violent anti-American mob. How many times have we seen that happen?

    Since most of us are against throwing Molotovs or electing Madame Guillotine, we need to find a new way. Yeah, social media activism isn't working either, but at least people are trying something.
    I dunno...I think we can point to a number of times when protesting has succeeded ( even for causes we might disagree with). Not every protest is successful and even the ones that are aren't successful instantly ( many that years), but I don't think we should say that no one has gotten anything from protesting.

  11. #1286
    Horrific Experiment JCAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    I think too many people are still waiting on that singular watershed moment that will change everything for the better. Democrats need to learn from the Republicans and start playing the long game, training up people to be professional agitators with a lifelong commitment to their cause, not a bunch of milquetoast dilettantes who go through an activist phase in youth but assume that winning one election means their job is done. I'm not sure if this is really possible though, the reason the GOP is so committed to their policies is precisely because they know that they didn't earn any of what they currently have and so they must abandon all principle and do whatever it takes to preserve their privileges, whereas too many liberals are still deluded enough to believe that they can beat the system with clever thinking and positivity, despite all the evidence to the contrary. One of the worst things that could happen is if the Democrats manage to beat Trump in 2020 with some lame moderate candidate, so that everyone can believe that everything is fine again.
    I've completely written the GOP off on the front a long time ago. Donald Trump could dance naked up the steps of the Capitol building and nobody would say a thing.

  12. #1287
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCAll View Post
    Might be because nobody heard about it or knows who she is. Sanders is a big name and his townhall was highly publicized, Klobuchar is a name only known to the kind of people that spend their evenings on political forums. Or maybe it's just that Sanders showed you can go on Fox News without being drowned out by conspiracy theories and hate mongering. Things are always easier when you know they're possible.
    Sure. That could explain it not coming up everywhere.

    Doesn't really explain it not coming up in a thread like this. It's not like no one participating in this thread is aware that Klobuchar is running.

    As for what is in green, Sanders had to take the lead on something again?
    Last edited by numberthirty; 05-08-2019 at 09:23 PM.

  13. #1288
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I am unaware of Trump referring to white nationalists as "very fine" people. He did explicitly say that white nationalists should be condemned totally.
    Mets, the Unite the Right ralley had people marching with Nazis. Actual, swastika wearing nazis. There were no fine people on that side, no matter how many times you try to find a way to pretend it away and defend Trump's 'context'. You're not unaware. You just choose not to see and find whatever excuses help you do that.

  14. #1289
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    I think too many people are still waiting on that singular watershed moment that will change everything for the better. Democrats need to learn from the Republicans and start playing the long game, training up people to be professional agitators with a lifelong commitment to their cause, not a bunch of milquetoast dilettantes who go through an activist phase in youth but assume that winning one election means their job is done. I'm not sure if this is really possible though, the reason the GOP is so committed to their policies is precisely because they know that they didn't earn any of what they currently have and so they must abandon all principle and do whatever it takes to preserve their privileges, whereas too many liberals are still deluded enough to believe that they can beat the system with clever thinking and positivity, despite all the evidence to the contrary. One of the worst things that could happen is if the Democrats manage to beat Trump in 2020 with some lame moderate candidate, so that everyone can believe that everything is fine again.
    That's it exactly. The Democrats won't win without getting their hands dirty. However, consider this: the Republicans let the Democrats win, so they can sabotage everything and then elect someone even further to the right than Trump in 2024.
    Last edited by Malvolio; 05-08-2019 at 10:58 PM.

  15. #1290
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    That's it exactly. The Democrats won't win without getting their hands dirty. However, consider this: the Republicans let the Democrats win, so they can sabotage everything and then elect someone even further to the right than Trump in 2024.
    If Democrats looked at the way Republicans ran on picking apart the ACA and still don't have a plan for contending with that sort of thing going forward, they might want to think about just packing it in.

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