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  1. #76
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    This new trilogy of Star Wars films is so shambolic in terms of direction, it's ridiculous. The Force Awakens was so derivative of A New Hope that it was hardly a film in its own right. The Last Jedi tried so hard to be different that it left a bad taste in everyone's mouths, and now with The Rise of Skywalker it seems like Disney is overcorrecting the previous film's mistakes. There is no sense of direction or theme here other than some vague notion of honoring "legacy." If "legacy" is the core theme of this trilogy, they would've done better just to adapt and tweak the Legacy of the Force series that focused on Jacen and Jaina Solo.

    Instead, we get garbage like "Let the past die." (Immediately resurrects Emperor Palpatine for the next sequel.)
    To be honest, Lucas was pretty much winging it too during the making of the Original Trilogy. The whole concept of Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker being the same person was cooked up during the making of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, and likewise, Leia being the sibling of Luke between EMPIRE and RETURN OF THE JEDI.

    Lucas just got lucky that it all worked out, and fans were more forgiving of these things back then as the sensational spectacle of a STAR WARS movie during the 1970s and 1980s made all other considerations kind of moot. Moreover, there were no earlier STAR WARS films for comparison.

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  2. #77
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    To be honest, Lucas was pretty much winging it too during the making of the Original Trilogy. The whole concept of Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker being the same person was cooked up during the making of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, and likewise, Leia being the sibling of Luke between EMPIRE and RETURN OF THE JEDI.

    Lucas just got lucky that it all worked out, and fans were more forgiving of these things back then as the sensational spectacle of a STAR WARS movie during the 1970s and 1980s made all other considerations kind of moot...and that there were no earlier STAR WARS films to compare them to.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    I agree. People are way too harsh on these movies. They have flaws, sure...but so do the original movies.

    If you want to know if the new Star Wars movies are good, bring a 4 year old with you. If they leave the theater jumping and swinging an imaginary lightsaber, then the movie’s good.

    Same as it was with the original trilogy.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Oh and wasn't the whole point of the last jedi to "destroy the past", "break free from the old stuff" or some crap like that?

    So....the emperor?
    Actually, I would argue that (one of) the point(s) of The Last Jedi was about NOT running from the past. But also not being beholden to it unnecessarily.

    It's all in the dichotomy between Kylo and Luke's stories. Luke is running from the past. Hiding from it. He feels shame because he failed, and because of why he failed. But rather than confront his failure he has abandoned everything he is and gone to hide out and punish himself being miserable and alone. For Luke Skywalker, the past is shame.

    Kylo loathes his past. It's a sign of everything he doesn't want to be. Parents, expectations. It's all weakness to him. He WANTS to hate Luke for what he perceives as Luke's betrayal. He WANTS to hate his parents, for leaving him with Luke and making him alone and afraid. But he can't break from his old feelings, his old attachments. Especially where his parents are concerned, he still loves them. Luke he seems to genuinely hate, but it's an irrational, overcompensating hate that reeks of projection and insecurity. For Ben Solo, the past is weakness.

    Kylo wants to cut himself off from his past. "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to," he tells Rey. Leave behind who your were. Cut all connections, run from all feelings. He is so desperate to be an edgelord that he will rebuild himself into the person he believes he should have always been only by refusing to accept who he actually has been. He kills his own father (more reluctantly than he expected, more shame and loathing). He nearly kills his own mother, but then can't even actually take the shot. And when the moment comes, he is so blinded by his emotions that he abandons the entire purpose of being on Crait for his shot to murder Luke. It isn't Kylo's past that makes him weak, it's the fact that he can't accept it, which means he can't accept who he truly is. He invents a monster to hide behind, but he's no Vader.

    Luke also wants to cut himself off from his past. To let the Jedi Order die. To be forgotten. But he eventually sees his way past his shame, past his fear. He reaches out and confronts his past, in the most literal of ways. When Luke "arrives" on Crait, he has accepted his past and realized that it is time to move forward. He doesn't need the past to die. He doesn't need to kill it. He just needs to see that what came before is not all that is, or ever will be. Luke stops wallowing in the past, and decides to do what he probably should have been doing all along. Fight for the future. It's his reaching for hope, accepting the past but acknowledging that a new road lies ahead, that reignites the spark of hope across the universe.

    Honestly, for a movie where the bad guys pretty much win across the board until Luke gets involved at the very end, all of it's themes and messages are almost distressingly upbeat and hopeful.

  4. #79
    Satanic Member chachi's Avatar
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    well said ZeroBG82

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    In the most recent Darth Vader series we learn that Castle Vader was built under the guidance of an ancient Sith Lord who's mind was attached to his helmet, so it seems it's in the new continuity as well.
    Okay, thanks. Will have to read that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    This new trilogy of Star Wars films is so shambolic in terms of direction, it's ridiculous.
    Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    The Force Awakens was so derivative of A New Hope that it was hardly a film in its own right.
    Seriously? Beyond the fact that all the movies have remixed and stolen from each other, the characters were different and pushed the story in different ways beyond the similar starting points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    The Last Jedi tried so hard to be different that it left a bad taste in everyone's mouths...
    I actually loved that movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    ..and now with The Rise of Skywalker it seems like Disney is overcorrecting the previous film's mistakes. There is no sense of direction or theme here other than some vague notion of honoring "legacy." If "legacy" is the core theme of this trilogy, they would've done better just to adapt and tweak the Legacy of the Force series that focused on Jacen and Jaina Solo.
    It's just a teaser; we still don't have any concrete info on what the story's going to be about, so it's impossible to say that they're overcorrecting (beyond us already having confirmation that the backlash of the few did not impact the filmmaking decisions). As far as using the Solo twins, they were Legends stuff, which rarely makes it in the movies, (Besides, between Kylo Ren and Rey, we are seeing the theme of legacy carried out in both positive and negative ways).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Instead, we get garbage like "Let the past die." (Immediately resurrects Emperor Palpatine for the next sequel.)
    That's not what the line meant (and given that it was the villain's line, there's a good chance we're supposed to not believe it).

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Actually, I would argue that (one of) the point(s) of The Last Jedi was about NOT running from the past. But also not being beholden to it unnecessarily.

    It's all in the dichotomy between Kylo and Luke's stories. Luke is running from the past. Hiding from it. He feels shame because he failed, and because of why he failed. But rather than confront his failure he has abandoned everything he is and gone to hide out and punish himself being miserable and alone. For Luke Skywalker, the past is shame.

    Kylo loathes his past. It's a sign of everything he doesn't want to be. Parents, expectations. It's all weakness to him. He WANTS to hate Luke for what he perceives as Luke's betrayal. He WANTS to hate his parents, for leaving him with Luke and making him alone and afraid. But he can't break from his old feelings, his old attachments. Especially where his parents are concerned, he still loves them. Luke he seems to genuinely hate, but it's an irrational, overcompensating hate that reeks of projection and insecurity. For Ben Solo, the past is weakness.

    Kylo wants to cut himself off from his past. "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to," he tells Rey. Leave behind who your were. Cut all connections, run from all feelings. He is so desperate to be an edgelord that he will rebuild himself into the person he believes he should have always been only by refusing to accept who he actually has been. He kills his own father (more reluctantly than he expected, more shame and loathing). He nearly kills his own mother, but then can't even actually take the shot. And when the moment comes, he is so blinded by his emotions that he abandons the entire purpose of being on Crait for his shot to murder Luke. It isn't Kylo's past that makes him weak, it's the fact that he can't accept it, which means he can't accept who he truly is. He invents a monster to hide behind, but he's no Vader.

    Luke also wants to cut himself off from his past. To let the Jedi Order die. To be forgotten. But he eventually sees his way past his shame, past his fear. He reaches out and confronts his past, in the most literal of ways. When Luke "arrives" on Crait, he has accepted his past and realized that it is time to move forward. He doesn't need the past to die. He doesn't need to kill it. He just needs to see that what came before is not all that is, or ever will be. Luke stops wallowing in the past, and decides to do what he probably should have been doing all along. Fight for the future. It's his reaching for hope, accepting the past but acknowledging that a new road lies ahead, that reignites the spark of hope across the universe.

    Honestly, for a movie where the bad guys pretty much win across the board until Luke gets involved at the very end, all of it's themes and messages are almost distressingly upbeat and hopeful.
    We need to have like buttons. Really well said.
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  6. #81
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    JJ said on Friday that the only thing that he had to change for IX was Leia's role due to Carrie's death. And it was a substantial change. TLJ had nothing to do with his changes that he and Rian mapped out after TFA.

    Rian, JJ, and Colin before he left had already mapped out the trilogy after TFA. The only thing that JJ said (and Daisy backed him up) was Colin had a different idea for Rey that Rian setup for in TLJ but JJ asked for some additional bridge scenes to be filmed with Finn to change it. Daisy said Colin's arc for Rey was touching but JJ's made more sense and "far more emotional." They've addressed the "lack of plan" rumors tons of times before.

    I don't think billion dollar franchises can afford to go off half-cocked.
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  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Actually, I would argue that (one of) the point(s) of The Last Jedi was about NOT running from the past. But also not being beholden to it unnecessarily.

    It's all in the dichotomy between Kylo and Luke's stories. Luke is running from the past. Hiding from it. He feels shame because he failed, and because of why he failed. But rather than confront his failure he has abandoned everything he is and gone to hide out and punish himself being miserable and alone. For Luke Skywalker, the past is shame.

    Kylo loathes his past. It's a sign of everything he doesn't want to be. Parents, expectations. It's all weakness to him. He WANTS to hate Luke for what he perceives as Luke's betrayal. He WANTS to hate his parents, for leaving him with Luke and making him alone and afraid. But he can't break from his old feelings, his old attachments. Especially where his parents are concerned, he still loves them. Luke he seems to genuinely hate, but it's an irrational, overcompensating hate that reeks of projection and insecurity. For Ben Solo, the past is weakness.

    Kylo wants to cut himself off from his past. "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to," he tells Rey. Leave behind who your were. Cut all connections, run from all feelings. He is so desperate to be an edgelord that he will rebuild himself into the person he believes he should have always been only by refusing to accept who he actually has been. He kills his own father (more reluctantly than he expected, more shame and loathing). He nearly kills his own mother, but then can't even actually take the shot. And when the moment comes, he is so blinded by his emotions that he abandons the entire purpose of being on Crait for his shot to murder Luke. It isn't Kylo's past that makes him weak, it's the fact that he can't accept it, which means he can't accept who he truly is. He invents a monster to hide behind, but he's no Vader.

    Luke also wants to cut himself off from his past. To let the Jedi Order die. To be forgotten. But he eventually sees his way past his shame, past his fear. He reaches out and confronts his past, in the most literal of ways. When Luke "arrives" on Crait, he has accepted his past and realized that it is time to move forward. He doesn't need the past to die. He doesn't need to kill it. He just needs to see that what came before is not all that is, or ever will be. Luke stops wallowing in the past, and decides to do what he probably should have been doing all along. Fight for the future. It's his reaching for hope, accepting the past but acknowledging that a new road lies ahead, that reignites the spark of hope across the universe.

    Honestly, for a movie where the bad guys pretty much win across the board until Luke gets involved at the very end, all of it's themes and messages are almost distressingly upbeat and hopeful.
    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Okay, thanks. Will have to read that.



    Really?



    Seriously? Beyond the fact that all the movies have remixed and stolen from each other, the characters were different and pushed the story in different ways beyond the similar starting points.



    I actually loved that movie.



    It's just a teaser; we still don't have any concrete info on what the story's going to be about, so it's impossible to say that they're overcorrecting (beyond us already having confirmation that the backlash of the few did not impact the filmmaking decisions). As far as using the Solo twins, they were Legends stuff, which rarely makes it in the movies, (Besides, between Kylo Ren and Rey, we are seeing the theme of legacy carried out in both positive and negative ways).



    That's not what the line meant (and given that it was the villain's line, there's a good chance we're supposed to not believe it).



    We need to have like buttons. Really well said.
    To be fair I've seen people who both love and hate TLJ take it as the message of the movie. So if they were trying to prove Kylo's kill the past thing wrong. I don't think they did that good of a job of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    JJ said on Friday that the only thing that he had to change for IX was Leia's role due to Carrie's death. And it was a substantial change. TLJ had nothing to do with his changes that he and Rian mapped out after TFA.

    Rian, JJ, and Colin before he left had already mapped out the trilogy after TFA. The only thing that JJ said (and Daisy backed him up) was Colin had a different idea for Rey that Rian setup for in TLJ but JJ asked for some additional bridge scenes to be filmed with Finn to change it. Daisy said Colin's arc for Rey was touching but JJ's made more sense and "far more emotional." They've addressed the "lack of plan" rumors tons of times before.

    I don't think billion dollar franchises can afford to go off half-cocked.
    I have to admit I'm somewhat curious what the original plans were.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    This new trilogy of Star Wars films is so shambolic in terms of direction, it's ridiculous. The Force Awakens was so derivative of A New Hope that it was hardly a film in its own right. The Last Jedi tried so hard to be different that it left a bad taste in everyone's mouths, and now with The Rise of Skywalker it seems like Disney is overcorrecting the previous film's mistakes. There is no sense of direction or theme here other than some vague notion of honoring "legacy." If "legacy" is the core theme of this trilogy, they would've done better just to adapt and tweak the Legacy of the Force series that focused on Jacen and Jaina Solo.

    Instead, we get garbage like "Let the past die." (Immediately resurrects Emperor Palpatine for the next sequel.)
    Hell no. Legacy of the Force was a terrible story that destroyed the old EU and was an even worse retelling of the prequels. I have a ton of problems with the current movies, but they don't begin to compare to that crapfest.

    As for what I said before about blaming Abrams, he was the one who failed to make Snoke and Rey, the two characters his 'mysteries' depended on, interesting and compelling. Rey in particular couldn't have a satisfactory answer, because being the child of any established character other than Palpatine would be an insult to that character. Obi Wan, Luke, Han and Leia, how would any of them look if they abandoned their daughter like that?

  9. #84
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    They needed some kind of big bad. Snoke was offed in TLJ and Kylo just doesn't come across as "big bad" material. So either you invent a totally new bad guy for the last film out of nowhere, or you bring back THE big bad of the SW films. The latter is a bit better.

    I think that this was JJ's idea since he couldn't use Snoke anymore.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I mostly agree with this, but also put blame on whoever was supposed to be in charge of everything overall. Rian answered to someone, and that someone should have said NO at some point.
    Oh I agree. Rian answered to Kathleen Kennedy ultimately, so the blame lies with her most of all.

  11. #86
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Best reaction I've seen to the trailer so far:

  12. #87
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Best reaction I've seen to the trailer so far:
    Eerily prophetic too, in retrospect.

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  13. #88
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Perhaps the Palpatine thing might be another sign of misdirection?


    Remember, a lot of the early marketing for The Force Awakens focused on Finn with the lightsaber, with Rey only shown with the staff. It wasn't until the film came out that we found it she was actually the force-sensitive one. Although Finn does use the lightsaber in the film of course.....

    It's possible that maybe "Palpatine" could in fact be a sentinel droid, as well, basically droids that contained holographic messages from Palpatine that detailed his post-Endor orders, such as Operation Cinder. Maybe the Death Star wreck has one onboard, maybe there's some clue to Rey's past? There's been rumors since TFA that maybe she's actually in some way related to Palpatine (Although of course she was born a decade after Palpatine's death, it's possible Palpatine might have had offspring somehow).

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sentinel_(Contingency)
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  14. #89
    Incredible Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    First of all, let me just say that this is going to make a lot of money because it's Star Wars

    Just watched the trailer again. Remember the phrase "jump the shark"? Well, this "jumped the tie fighter". I will tell you why, besides Rey jumping over a Tie fighter. This new trilogy feels like an adaptation of a series of YA novels. A plucky but boring heroine complete with unearned status and broody will they won't they relationship drama with Star Wars sprinkled on.

    The Emperor's return just speaks to the fact that this trilogy couldn't create interesting villains. Speaking of villains why oh why did JJ even bother to go back to Rebels vs Empire? If JJ swears he had a plan but Rian didn't follow it. Whose fault is that? Disney isn't paying JJ all this money to be an absentee dad. Where was Kennedy in all this?
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  15. #90
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    We have seen quite a few high backflips in the series before.


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