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  1. #16
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    People act as though Tony is practically a co-lead in Homecoming but the truth is, he's hardly in it.

    There's much more time spent on Peter's relationship with Liz.
    I think if people come off with that impression it's because Tony's presence and impact go beyond his physical appearances.

    He's as pivotal a factor in Peter's Superhero side as Liz is to his civilian side.
    Whether it's directly stated or not, May is always the most important person in Peter's life.
    I mean, yeah, but it's much more felt and really illustrated in certain adaptions over others.
    That's debatable, of course. But the larger point being that Peter has historically had surrogate father figures in his life. Especially early on. So it's not unusual to see that represented in the MCU. It also doesn't preclude the importance of women in his life.
    I won't disagree he's had surrogate father figures in his life, but making them a Superhero certainly changes the dynamic a lot (and not for the better in my opinion).

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think if people come off with that impression it's because Tony's presence and impact go beyond his physical appearances.

    He's as pivotal a factor in Peter's Superhero side as Liz is to his civilian side.
    Point being that Peter's life isn't exclusively dominated by male figures.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think both are big enough stretches for Mary Jane's character.

    I just don't really see her as the writing type.

    Honestly I think 616 Mary Jane has gotten a surprising amount of focus on her personal life and internal thoughts for a love interest/supporting character.

    If Michelle is really going to be our Mary Jane stand-in, then I hope she gets the same amount of focus even if she's "MJ" in name only.

    Mary Jane is definitely not a dainty dilettante .

    I have no problem with giving Mary Jane more to do, I'd just rather it not be as a reporter.
    Yeah, it's all "no"s from you when you're looking at possibilities to expand a female character... so, you'd rather have MJ be "the girl" then, because she's not "the writing type." Nothing wrong with the status quo in your eyes. Heck, they oughta keep her in the kitchen making wheatcakes with Aunt May when she's not crying about not getting more attention.

    Edit: 616 Aunt May would also benefit from incorporating some of the more interesting and vital characteristics she's received in alt-universe portrayals so that 616-May can do more than just always be dying. (Again in FNSM!!)
    Last edited by gregpersons; 04-10-2019 at 02:27 AM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Mary Jane as an investigative reporter is a bad idea, it's too far removed from her established character. There's no good way to get away from the Lois Lane comparison either, no matter how it's written it would only come across as a cliche or a knockoff.
    This logic is stupid. Not saying "you" are stupid but this is just a terrible argument. Lois Lane is a reporter, so Mary Jane can't be? Why?

    Is Spider-Man the only superhero? Is he the only superhero with powers based on a bug, or a spider?

    No? That doesn't seem to be a problem for you?

    Then, please, for every male here that is insisting MJ isn't allowed to be a reporter -- please, enlighten us, what should MJ be? What would work for you?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    While I am on-the-fence about MJ being the reporter (I liked it in Ultimate Spider-Man comics and in the game), and I don't think "too Lois Lane" is a problem (not since Lois stole and borrowed a lot from MJ especially the modern version of her, so turnaround is fair play), and so on...I actually do think MJ can be a writer.

    MJ is interested in drama and stuff, so make her a playwright, or a novelist or a writer. Her father was a failed novelist after all, and there's a logic in the fact that all the writing talent and stuff which he never had and which he destroyed his family in a failed pursuit to get, ended up going to his daughter. There's also you know the fact that as a civilian, Mary Jane has arguably seen and experienced and had more life experiences than any other civilian in the Marvel Universe. And you can become a writer at any age. The fact that rather than constantly see Spider-Man's time and career as a hindrance, she could somehow use fiction or art to make it work might be an idea you can explore. Spider-Man and Peter becomes her muse, an idea that some writers explored, including Roger Stern in that sketch he did in The Many Loves of Spider-Man which is the best Mary Jane story in the BND era. And the best part is that it's got an in-built disequilibrium. She can write a good story but it doesn't sell well but some people like it. She works hard, so she can be up till late waiting for Peter and writing can distract her from waiting at the window. Any intense life experience and danger is more fodder for her work. So there's nothing permanent and lasting inherent to it. The thing about MJ is that her life resembles Peter's and parallels it. She's not had a steady lasting job, she's been up and down, she's had successes but never anything lasting and so on. She works in careers, modelling and acting, that's seasonal, unstable, and plateaus early. So even during the marriage, her career never exactly solved all of Peter's problems. So in that respects the marriage worked as the "illusion of change" in that while it was a major change to Peter's career it didn't by itself solve his work/life balance.
    This is a perfect example of just how natural and easily "writing" can be added to Mary Jane's characterization, adapting from both her PS4 and Ultimate portrayals while still keeping everything canonical to 616.

    So far the only reasons for "why not" is because there's another girl reporter with the Distinguished Competition, and "eh idk it just doesn't feel right."

    It sounds A LOT like the kind of low-level misogynistic conversations that tend to keep people away from comic book shops and comic book message boards... but I'm sure that's not what's going on here, so, to keep things productive... either provide an alternate pitch, or a better reason why 616 MJ should not be as empowered as her alternate universe portrayals besides "eh."

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    This logic is stupid. Not saying "you" are stupid but this is just a terrible argument. Lois Lane is a reporter, so Mary Jane can't be? Why?
    Lois Lane and Mary Jane are different characters, they're not interchangeable. Lois Lane was established as an investigative reporter from day one. Mary Jane, the Marvel Universe version, has been around for over 50 years and not shown any interest in being an investigative reporter. It's not the kind of job someone can easily step into from nothing. It would take years of setup to get to that point. What would be gained, beyond making the Spider-Man comic more like its competitors (Superman, The Flash)? Why give Mary Jane that career when Norah Winters and Betty Brant already exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    --Spider-Man's powers are nearly identical to early Superman; ie, both can leap tall buildings in a single bound
    When has Spider-Man ever leapt over a skyscraper?
    Last edited by Lee; 04-10-2019 at 12:58 PM.

  7. #22
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Yeah, it's all "no"s from you when you're looking at possibilities to expand a female character... so, you'd rather have MJ be "the girl" then, because she's not "the writing type." Nothing wrong with the status quo in your eyes. Heck, they oughta keep her in the kitchen making wheatcakes with Aunt May when she's not crying about not getting more attention.
    Nowhere did I say I wanted Mary Jane to be "the girl," just that I don't think her comic characterization lends itself to her being a reporter.

    I am all for an active and effective Mary Jane, I just personally don't care for her as a reporter and I think her other careers better express her characters in the comics and don't run the risk of making her too much like other reporter love interests in comics (of which there are quite a few).

  8. #23
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    I wouldn't want to see Mary Jane be an investigative journalist without years of character development to build her up to it, but I would definitely approve of her going from industry insider to industry reporter in the fashion and life section or whatever, or having a fashion blog, or writing a novel, or doing all those things. As long as whatever she does acknowledges her history so far it'd be cool with me. Hell, you could have her drag Peter to various shows and events she's reporting on as her photographer, have a villain pop up, and have her help sneak Peter off somewhere so he change into Spider-Man discreetly and take care of it. Make her a little more active in both his civilian and hero life.

    Now, after she gets the reporting bug you can slowly shift her to more investigative reporting. I don't think it'd make her too much like Lois, they're both distinct enough characters to do the same job and stand on their own. Besides, Lois competes with Clark for headlines as reporters, while Peter is a news photographer so their work interactions would be different.


    For some reason I now want to see a Peter Parker and Jimmy Olsen crossover.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I wouldn't want to see Mary Jane be an investigative journalist without years of character development to build her up to it, but I would definitely approve of her going from industry insider to industry reporter in the fashion and life section or whatever, or having a fashion blog, or writing a novel, or doing all those things.
    A trendy extrovert like Mary Jane, in 2019, would be a fashion and lifestyle Youtuber.

  10. #25
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    A trendy extrovert like Mary Jane, in 2019, would be a fashion and lifestyle Youtuber.
    See, I wouldn't know that because I'm not trendy...and only use YouTube to watch movie trailers, Dragonball Z Abridged, and anime music videos.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    A trendy extrovert like Mary Jane, in 2019, would be a fashion and lifestyle Youtuber.
    I agree with this. Such a career would make perfect sense for her in a modern setting.
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    See, I wouldn't know that because I'm not trendy...and only use YouTube to watch movie trailers, Dragonball Z Abridged, and anime music videos.
    DBZ Abridged is the bestest LMAO
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I wouldn't want to see Mary Jane be an investigative journalist without years of character development to build her up to it, but I would definitely approve of her going from industry insider to industry reporter in the fashion and life section or whatever, or having a fashion blog, or writing a novel, or doing all those things. As long as whatever she does acknowledges her history so far it'd be cool with me. Hell, you could have her drag Peter to various shows and events she's reporting on as her photographer, have a villain pop up, and have her help sneak Peter off somewhere so he change into Spider-Man discreetly and take care of it. Make her a little more active in both his civilian and hero life.

    Now, after she gets the reporting bug you can slowly shift her to more investigative reporting. I don't think it'd make her too much like Lois, they're both distinct enough characters to do the same job and stand on their own. Besides, Lois competes with Clark for headlines as reporters, while Peter is a news photographer so their work interactions would be different.


    For some reason I now want to see a Peter Parker and Jimmy Olsen crossover.
    Exactly.

    By adapting her PS4 role as a Bugle reporter (starting as "trends/entertainment writer") it solves or improves 3 issues in one stroke.

    1) It provides a direction that gives MJ character growth, is consistent with her history, but also opens up a lot of potential new stories in the future

    2) It keeps the Bugle characters involved naturally

    3) Most importantly, it allows MJ to be an integral character in the overall story and not just a hostage or a chore for Peter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    A trendy extrovert like Mary Jane, in 2019, would be a fashion and lifestyle Youtuber.
    Okay but what would be the point of this? She is still adjacent to the main story and separate from the action. So why change her from model / actress? There's no reason to do this, other than change for change sake, which is not what is being advocated.
    Last edited by gregpersons; 04-11-2019 at 01:58 AM.

  14. #29
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    1) It provides a direction that gives MJ character growth, is consistent with her history, but also opens up a lot of potential new stories in the future
    I really don't see how being a reporter is consistent with her history.

  15. #30
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I really don't see how being a reporter is consistent with her history.
    Fashion and trends reporter would be consistent.

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