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  1. #61
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Except strategy and smarts are important to the essence of Dick, Jason, and Damian's characters and what they do too. It’s intrinsic to how they operate. Given they don’t have superpowers. What you think Dick survives in that world by out flipping bad guys, or Jason just angers them into submission. Author’s just don’t tend to beat readers over the head continuously telling them about it like those on Tim tend to do. But its still self evident in plenty of their stories. So acting or thinking like Bruce is hardly exclusive to Tim. The others have just been fortunate enough to have had creators that realize it’s better to not outwardly lean on it like they do with Tim. As we already have a Bruce. Except for Damian where it’s leaned on as a parody and taken to extremes.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-20-2019 at 02:36 AM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Dick was playing chess long before Tim even existed. Let’s cut the crap, the implication that the others are too stupid to be Batman is utterly ridiculous. Oh, but they embody his intangible will and emotions lol. Just because they don’t require someone to tell readers how smart they are every time they fart doesn’t mean they don’t know how to play chess and don’t have their own years of comics to back it up.
    This boy band farce where the Robins are put in a box, and they have them try to claim general aspects and abilities, is just antiquated and lazy. I refuse to buy into it. I’ve read far too many years of comics and seen what they can do. Hell Tim isn’t even the smartest one, Babs is
    Raging against their archetypal nature is a bit pointless though. They are almost at the level of folk heroes. Being archetypes is where they draw much of their power and longevity from. This is not a unique feature of the Robins. Most superheroes ultimately archetypes who developed depth for the readers and writers who know them intimately, they didn't start out as deep characters who were rendered down to archetypes. It's like saying "Why is Batman portrayed as the smart one? Superman's smart. Superman's got kryptonian intelligence." Sure, he is, but if I was describing Superman to a person who had never heard of him before. It's the ones that don't map to obvious archetypes that tend to struggle to survive.

    If they are not the focus of the story - and they are often not - then its a useful storytelling technique to allow them to have individual personalities. Take Batman Ninja, where the Nightwing, Red Robin and Damian are all hypercompetent, hyperintelligent and hyper useful, but the only thing I know about them individually is that there is one who likes monkeys. Compare that to Dick, Jason and Tim in Gotham by Gaslight, where they have about equivalent screentime but which does a much better job of letting their individual personalities shine despite them being boiled down to the boot leather of their personalities - the hopeful one, the cynic and the quiet one.

    And honestly, the more alike you are the more differences stand out. When they're hanging with the Titans, they are all the smart one or the detective or the leader. It's only when you put them in a room with other smart people or detectives or leader that relative differences in skill and interest become more apparent. Say, number 2,3 and 4 in the world at golf. One is super precise, one plays 'caveman golf' and one has a really long drive, but they all ultimately can hit the ball a long way and put the ball in the hole.

  3. #63
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    Also even when Tim is this genius and thinks he's "Bruce-lite" he's not either. DC's tendency to treat Tim like he's better than any other, that he's like Bruce , and that he "understand how Batman feel now" and never calls him out ever in HIS BOOK only is very tricky to readers who don't think to understand him and harmful to his psyche. He's back to the other Batbooks and there will be somebody that puts him into his place, being Bruce, Dick or Babs. And his place, until he is mature enough, will always be the third Robin. Dickbats puts him back in that and Babs shot him down from his bubble. Tim is actually a very different kind of intellectual/stategist from Bruce , enough that he plays a support role to Bruce better than Dick or Jason. He leans on being smart too much and he becomes a fascist and this sort of mad scentist, because he doesnt have a self-awareness, this conscience that grounds him back. It's Bruce's moral code , his ethics that stopped him from going bad and failing, and no it's not a Robin because Bruce had that period in 1939. Robin only kept it going no matter what. And Tim failed to do that for Bruce the later the comic, because he didn't even understand his predecessors. The more able you think you are to be Batman, or fans think you are, the more you shouldn't do it.
    Last edited by nhienphan2808; 06-20-2019 at 04:28 AM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    Also even when Tim is this genius and thinks he's "Bruce-lite" he's not either. DC's tendency to treat Tim like he's better than any other, that he's like Bruce , and that he "understand how Batman feel now" and never calls him out ever in HIS BOOK only is very tricky to readers who don't think to understand him and harmful to his psyche. He's back to the other Batbooks and there will be somebody that puts him into his place, being Bruce, Dick or Babs. And his place, until he is mature enough, will always be the third Robin. Dickbats puts him back in that and Babs shot him down from his bubble. Tim is actually a very different kind of intellectual/stategist from Bruce , enough that he plays a support role to Bruce better than Dick or Jason. He leans on being smart too much and he becomes a fascist and this sort of mad scentist, because he doesnt have a self-awareness, this conscience that grounds him back. It's Bruce's moral code , his ethics that stopped him from going bad and failing, and no it's not a Robin because Bruce had that period in 1939. Robin only kept it going no matter what. And Tim failed to do that for Bruce the later the comic, because he didn't even understand his predecessors. The more able you think you are to be Batman, or fans think you are, the more you shouldn't do it.
    Tim and Barbara were generally pretty close during the Oracle days. I'm not really sure what shooting down you're referring too.

    And being in danger of becoming a fascist supercop is a very classic Batman trait, as evidenced by the Dark Knight Returns and Kingdom Come.

    May I ask, do you just like Dick, or is there some other combination of the Robins you approve of? Everyone's got their own preferences, but loving Dixon's Nightwing and yet not caring for Tim is kind of an unusual combo. Dick's relationship to Tim always felt like one of the important characteristics of that era.

  5. #65
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    Tim and Barbara were generally pretty close during the Oracle days. I'm not really sure what shooting down you're referring too.

    And being in danger of becoming a fascist supercop is a very classic Batman trait, as evidenced by the Dark Knight Returns and Kingdom Come.
    So you think being fascist is something Bruce would be proud of. LOL Dark Knight Returns. Spare me. I always think understanding Tim via Red Robin is equivalent to understanding Bruce based on DKR, and Batgod's fanboys and Tim fans blow my mind every time.

    Everyone is "generally very close" to each other when they work in a family even Dick and Cass who have all of 2 interactions . It's Tim's later issues that completely steals the perspective and traits from her. Even his origin is of "Batman needs a partner who's tec smart and understood him" created when she is written out of comics. Dc lost control of his character and Sued him up when she came back and in the 2000s became backseat to another Batgirl. Tim says things like "Gotham is mine" and fans think he's too cool and treated Steph - who was acknowledged by Babs - like shit and Oracle, who stops any crime in Gotham in a day just by a signal 2 years before him - convieniently didnt have any narrative. When Bruce is a fascist everyone treats it seriously. She shot him down in Rebirth when she said " I dont have time for idealists like you and your plans" when he's fascist.

    No i dont like Dixon Nightwing because it ignored a lot of Dick's history, and thus Tim too because Tim stepped out from a Titans comic, not a detective, just a Dick Grayson fanboy, not his own "smart" character from Batman comics. DC forgot this, made Tim forget this and everyone forget this after 95. When they retcons Dick to less and less a Titans and Jason less a son, put Babs' traits into him yet didnt bother to fix their 'best Robin", this is when they lost control of Tim. When Dick became Batman the second time in 2009, DC was sly enough to silence him but to me it's Dick's way of saying, "your place is the third Robin. I made you Robin and you have to relearn why you are even Robin - not even Red Robin. You are Robin and possibly Batman not because you are better than him. it's because Bruce's son was dead and don't pull that Bruce shit with me, im just trying with another son."
    Last edited by nhienphan2808; 06-20-2019 at 06:56 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    So you think being fascist is something Bruce would be proud of. LOL Dark Knight Returns. Spare me. I always think understanding Tim via Red Robin is equivalent to understanding Bruce based on DKR, and Batgod's fanboys and Tim fans blow my mind every time.
    Huh? No, I don't. I think it's a failing he tends to fall into as a logical extreme of what he does and who he is. It's still something that happens to him from time to time. His classic bad future, which is something they lifted from Batman and give to Tim for a hypothetical bad future. Or are you trying to say that current Tim is the fascist, in which case you'll have to expand because I don't understand what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    Everyone is "generally very close" to each other when they work in a family even Dick and Cass who have all of 2 interactions .
    I don't think anyone outside of fandom would argue that Dick and Cass are or were ever close. But I also didn't think anyone would argue that Pre-Flashpoint Tim and Dick weren't close or Tim and Babs weren't close. I'm not sure Barbara took a back seat to Cass or Steph either. She was a major character in both their series and in the main Batfamily titles and she's Batgirl again now.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    She shot him down in Rebirth when she said " I dont have time for idealists like you and your plans" when he's fascist.
    Ah, I don't remember that. Are you sure you are remembering correctly? The only time I think they interacted one and one during Rebirth was during the Batwoman 'trial'. Barbara otherwise didn't feature in 'Tec until Hill's run. But if you're talking about the recent 'Tec run, in which case Tim the fascist supercop and his plans to build a perfect vigilante team was very definitely portrayed as a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    No i dont like Dixon Nightwing because it ignored a lot of Dick's history, and thus Tim too because Tim stepped out from a Titans comic, not a detective, just a Dick Grayson fanboy, not his own "smart" character from Batman comics. DC forgot this, made Tim forget this and everyone forget this after 95. When they retcons Dick to less and less a Titans, put Babs' traits into him yet didnt bother to fix their 'best Robin", this is when they lost control of Tim. When Dick became Batman the second time in 2009, DC was sly enough to silence him but to me it's Dick's way of saying, "your place is the third Robin. I made you Robin and you have to relearn why you are even Robin - not even Red Robin. You are Robin and possibly Batman not because you are better than him. it's because Bruce's son was dead."
    You may feel that way, but he definitely didn't say or even imply this. You may not like Tim... or Dick by the sounds of it. But Dick sure does. And the writers who were dealing with the fallout of the end of Tim's time as Robin did and were writing them both sympathetically.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Oh... I think fascist Tim is when he's planning to make a utopia and eventually lead to Evil Future Tim, right?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Oh... I think fascist Tim is when he's planning to make a utopia and eventually lead to Evil Future Tim, right?
    That's correct and if i recall he was working with a fascist in Rebirth if i remember correctly.

    All the Robins have the skills to become Batman however in most futures/worlds it's Dick, Damian and Terry that go on to become Batman.

    I feel Nightwing is Dick's future but as Bruce's most trusted, most capable and his right hand man Dick is forever cursed with looking after the mantle till Damian is ready.

    It's a responsibility he can't escape as the next head of the family so it's fine.
    Last edited by CPSparkles; 06-20-2019 at 07:39 AM.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Why do people assume that if you are critical of a character it automatically means you dislike them? That is so sad and unfair.

    @Swallowtail I don't know about Tim but @nhienphan2808 is a Dick Grayson fan.
    Last edited by CPSparkles; 06-20-2019 at 07:41 AM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    Why do people assume that if you are critical of a character it automatically means you dislike them? That is so sad and unfair.

    @Swallowtail I don't know about Tim but @nhienphan2808 is a Dick Grayson fan.
    I was being unnecessarily snide, for which I apologise. I don't doubt @nienphan2808's fandom for Dick. As noted above, I was surprised by what seems to be their quite long fandom for Dick, combined with a pronounced dislike for Tim, which is an unusual combo. Dick and Tim fans usually get on unless they are strongly Damian fans first. I do think a take on Dick Grayson as the sort of person who tries to imply to his brother or to anyone that "I made you and the only reason we even ever wanted you in the first place is because the person we did want was dead." That's a pretty shitty thing for anyone to say and for Dick it's almost a critical hit to the heart of the character.

    I do wish people would stop tearing at each others faves though. I like all the Robins pretty equally and the culture of "your fave must die so mine can live" is depressing.
    Last edited by Swallowtail; 06-20-2019 at 08:55 AM.

  11. #71
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    Not reading the whole thread, but.....

    Someone on the early pages asked whether Bruce even *wants* anyone to take over for him. And I feel like he probably doesn't. There was a line in the Young Justice cartoon about Bruce taking Dick on as Robin, so he "wouldn't" turn out to be like Bruce. I think Bruce views the Bat as something he has to do, but something he also wants his kids to avoid becoming.

    However, what Bruce wants doesnt mean anything. Gotham needs the Batman, and will need one long after Bruce is dead or too old for the job. Someone has to take over. And Dick, being the oldest and most successful of the sidekicks, is the obvious choice. But there's two things that I think make Dick a really terrible choice for Batman.

    First, the guy cannot sit still. He's got wanderlust and lacks the consistency to be Batman. The guy loves to travel and try new things, and while Batman's mission takes him around the globe, ultimately he spends almost all his time in Gotham and Gotham is his top priority. Dick just doesn't have that kind of tunnel vision or consistency. Eventually, Dick would end up feeling the need to move/do new things and that could have a negative impact on his ability to be a proper Batman.

    There's also the fact that Dick just doesn't want the damn job. I feel like for Dick, being Batman would be similar to having a good job at a nice office.....and hating it so much it slowly kills you. Being Batman requires a degree of.....intensity?.....that doesnt really match Dick. Yeah, Dick can be really gods damn intense, but he's not nearly "tense" enough for the Bat cowl, if that makes any sense?

    And ultimately, I think being Batman would be far too limiting for Dick. Dick is from Gotham and he's always going to have a home in the Cave, and those roots shouldn't be forgotten or ignored. But Dick's world is far wider than Gotham and Bruce. Dick's sort of a child of the whole DCU and is one of the most well-connected people alive. I think he's got far more options in front of him than just taking over the family business. As Nightwing, he's honoring the two most important heroes alive while building his own mythology and reputation and importance. I'd much rather see Dick grow as Nightwing, then squeeze himself into a Batsuit that, mentally and emotionally, dont really fit him.

    If no one else was capable of being the next Batman, I think Dick would carry the mantle out of a sense of responsibility and need. But Tim will make an excellent Batman someday, Damian may yet grow into the role (despite what alternate futures say about them both, I think mentally they're better fits for the grimdark Bat than Dick, the only Bat person who smiles a lot). There's also Kate, who is a damn worthy Bat (even if "man" isnt at the end of her name). I can see Dick carrying the torch for a little bit until someone else is ready to take over, but a permanent role as Batman? Just doesn't seem to fit him, despite how well he does the job.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by bearman View Post
    But none more qualified.
    I am agree with him.. He is the most qualified for this..

    Damian should expect another 12 years to be really ready for this in all senses..

  13. #73
    Incredible Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Honestly, I don't even like how Damian is expected to become Batman. The title of Batman has always been just as much a curse on Bruce as it is a blessing. Not particularly something you'd wanna pass down to your children. At least I wouldn't want to. I've always liked the idea that Bruce has built up this large family specifically because he wanted Gotham to still have competent protectors when it's eventually time for him to hang up the cowl. Protectors who don't have to shoulder the weight of the city alone because they have each other. Having any of the Robins go on to take up his role as Batman should be Bruce's worst nightmare. Even if (in Damian's case) they want to.

    Hopefully Gotham will reach a point where Bruce is the only Batman it needs and can still function when he's gone. But, who are we kidding? That's never gonna happen lol

    It's always gonna be either Dick or Damian. Even though I don't want that for either of them.
    Last edited by Blue22; 06-21-2019 at 11:15 AM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Honestly, I don't even like how Damian is expected to become Batman. The title of Batman has always been just as much a curse on Bruce as it is a blessing. Not particularly something you'd wanna pass down to your children. At least I wouldn't want to. I've always liked the idea that Bruce has built up this large family specifically because he wanted Gotham to still have competent protectors when it's eventually time for him to hang up the cowl. Protectors who don't have to shoulder the weight of the city alone because they have each other.
    While I'm not against the idea of someone else becoming Batman, I like this idea too.

  15. #75

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    I really liked when he was Batman

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