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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I haven't said anything about the political stance of Breitbart
    I very specifically said "outlets like Breitbart" and you said "for the most part, yes".

    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    yeah, but idiots on the right aren't just arguing that captain marvel will be a flop, they're arguing that captain marvel is an attack on men's rights and forced progression. sjw is not code for "well meaning but ineffectual", it's code for "degenerate" in those circles.

    sjw may have begun as an updated "do gooder" or "tree hugger" but it's become weaponised in a way they never were.
    Exactly.

    Whatever the original usage, it's long since been adopted into the lexicon of Neo-Nazis.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Sometimes I think superheroes are one of the few things that demonstrate people can find common values again... but that's really living in a fantasy world!
    "game of thrones" would be another. i've seen house stark = democratic party articles as well as ned stark is donald trump memes.
    troo fan or death

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Exactly.

    Whatever the original usage, it's long since been adopted into the lexicon of Neo-Nazis.
    another example is the "white power/ok" sign; originally created to troll and trigger the left. it's since slipped from ironic bait to just another modern nazi salute.
    troo fan or death

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Point being that, regardless of the denominations characters are given in the story context, the Jewish influence is intertwined in core aspects of superhero stories -- in everything from dual identities, the "-man" suffix, and so on -- and just that it's an interesting lens to look at the characters through.
    Perhaps. It's pretty interesting that Bill Finger was quite explicit about the fact that Bruce Wayne (which he entirely wrote and created on his own) was supposed to be a patrician with ancestry dating to the American Revolutionary War. Finger of course was Jewish. So for him it was a conscious literary choice. He saw Batman as a New England aristocrat. So I don't think Finger intended Batman as a metaphor for passing or was especially conscious of it.

    In the case of Spider-Man, you have the fact that Steve Ditko and Stan Lee worked with the Marvel Method and most of the heavy lifting on plotting and characterization was done by Ditko, who wasn't Jewish (he was Slovakian descent, and philosophically an atheist). Yet at the same time, Ditko also worked on Dr. Strange and according to Blake Bell and Romita Sr., Strange was more autobiographical for Steve than Spider-Man was. I mean Stephen Strange lives all alone and is reclusive in his New York apartment but in his mind, or his imagination, he visits great realms and so on, so that's a good autobiographical framing of how Ditko saw his life, living alone but making a living with his imagination and living his study with his reference books and so on. That entire Eternity Saga, has Strange being hounded by this global conspiracy by Mordo and so on, and there's a paranoia there and fear of people and interactions that Ditko probably had.

    (It also makes it even more ridiculous when racist fans react to casting changes or new characters with "Spider-Man is white! Superman is white!" -- it's like... no, not really.)
    One of things people forget, and this is something that really happened when Ditko left Spider-Man, is that Spidey was very popular among African-Americans because they related to someone who was on the police and media's s--tlist. Spider-Man's experience of being misunderstood, scapegoated, and hounded by trigger happy cops, and constantly being worried and paranoid about how his actions might cause him trouble and so on, is close to the black experience. The difference is that Spider-Man has superpowers and so survives. When Ditko was around, he actually showed police as competent and capable. Like the Crime Master 2-Parter has the cops arresting the bad guy, the Spider-Man and HT fight with Sandman, ends with the two teen hotheads fighting each other, and Sandman being brought down by cops. The police are ironically shown more critically after Ditko left, ironic because Stan Lee initially had Captain George Stacy embody the duty-driven police officer and noble type, basically a second Uncle Ben. And then Captain Stacy dies, and the cops go apes--t on Spider-Man and then you have the 2-Parter Sam Bullitt story (ASM #91-92) where Spider-man is aligned against white supremacy, and explicitly identified and stated as such. Stan Lee of course introduced more diversity in the Romita era, so you had Robbie Robertson, his son Randy (a campus radical who in the Drug Trilogy got all in Norman Osborn's face), and of course the Prowler, the first Non-Peter to wear the Spider-Man costume.

    there are distinctly human ways to be a hero, and I like May and MJ best when they embody those ideals in more grounded, humanistic ways.

    (May running FEAST, for example, is a direction for the character that I adore)
    That's true. Mary Jane helped Peter bring attention to the plight of undocumented immigrants during Conway's second run on Spectacular.

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I very specifically said "outlets like Breitbart" and you said "for the most part, yes".



    Exactly.

    Whatever the original usage, it's long since been adopted into the lexicon of Neo-Nazis.
    You said "So Breitbart isn't a far-right outlet" when I've never said that Breitbart isn't a far-right outlet.

    We also haven't mentioned Neo-Nazis before, so that gets to a different level. I assume we can agree that there are conservatives who use sjw as a pejorative who are not neo-nazis, so there's no point to discussing them.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    some food for thought on the term SJW

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.b32a952d211c

    https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/m...rals-explained

    whatever we think of the term, i have a hard time believing the character of peter parker would ever employ it in day to day conversation or to denigrate anyone.
    troo fan or death

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Comes in looks around *shakes head* I'm not touching this one, bye.
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    some food for thought on the term SJW

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.b32a952d211c

    https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/m...rals-explained

    whatever we think of the term, i have a hard time believing the character of peter parker would ever employ it in day to day conversation or to denigrate anyone.
    I am a social conservative and I enjoy reading Spider-Man. I do not care what the politics of the writter are. What I do not like are poorly written stories. I have never considered Peter to be a SJW ( Social Justice Warrior)). Why? Pete has too many responsibilities to be protesting about issues. Why? Like most of us, we need to work and take care of loved ones ( Not to mention fighting crime as Spider-Man). One other point: Pete has always supported our police ( even when cops considered him a menace), and the dislike of police has been a trademark of both the hard left and the hard right. Pete's view of police will make him very unpopular with SJW's

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    and the dislike of police has been a trademark of both the hard left and the hard right. Pete's view of police will make him very unpopular with SJW's
    My impulse here is to say that what people want is accountability from the police.

    But at the same time there was an opinion piece on a gaming website when Spider-Man came out that was complaining about the fact that you work with the police in some missions, so there clearly are bivalent dimwits in the mix.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    My impulse here is to say that what people want is accountability from the police.

    But at the same time there was an opinion piece on a gaming website when Spider-Man came out that was complaining about the fact that you work with the police in some missions, so there clearly are bivalent dimwits in the mix.
    What people want most of all is protection from the bad guys out there, not accountability. It could be local police, the military, a gun, an attack dog, a body guard, a security system or some combination of the above. Putting a muzzle on cops just makes protection of society a whole lot harder.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    My impulse here is to say that what people want is accountability from the police.

    But at the same time there was an opinion piece on a gaming website when Spider-Man came out that was complaining about the fact that you work with the police in some missions, so there clearly are bivalent dimwits in the mix.
    Well Police in America in the last few years has been in a controversial phase. Any case, in the DLC, with Yuri Watanabe out, that might not be an issue in the later games. Spider-Man's relations with police fluctuate. Sometimes he's friendly, sometimes he's not. Sometimes he has a Commissioner Gordon and cop friend (Captain Stacy, Captain De Wolff, Captain Watanabe) and usually they die or break bad (as happened with Yuri).

    The police are not constantly or universally Spider-Man's friends. I do note that the movies did make Spider-Man friendlier to cops...but then again Sam Raimi is a republican, or at least was one when he made those movies. He donated to Dubya Bush's campaign and voted for him.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well Police in America in the last few years has been in a controversial phase. Any case, in the DLC, with Yuri Watanabe out, that might not be an issue in the later games. Spider-Man's relations with police fluctuate. Sometimes he's friendly, sometimes he's not. Sometimes he has a Commissioner Gordon and cop friend (Captain Stacy, Captain De Wolff, Captain Watanabe) and usually they die or break bad (as happened with Yuri).

    The police are not constantly or universally Spider-Man's friends. I do note that the movies did make Spider-Man friendlier to cops...but then again Sam Raimi is a republican, or at least was one when he made those movies. He donated to Dubya Bush's campaign and voted for him.
    Sam Raimi may be a Republican but Kristen Dunst and Toby Maguire certainly are not..One other point, a very liberal actor ( Robert Ryan) noted that the characters he usually played ( law enforement or criminals) are against who I am in real life, but they feed the family. If you never heard of Ryan, go to IMDB and look him up, he has one of the great movie resumes ever. The Dirty Dozen and The Wild Bunch are just two of them

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    What people want most of all is protection from the bad guys out there, not accountability.
    Ok, people can disagree on what kind of latitude cops should get or what accountability entails, but no one doesn't want accountability.

    It could be local police, the military, a gun, an attack dog, a body guard, a security system or some combination of the above. Putting a muzzle on cops just makes protection of society a whole lot harder.
    I absolutely do not want the military policing my neighborhood.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well Police in America in the last few years has been in a controversial phase.
    That's because of cell phone cameras. Police behavior hasn't changed so much as more incidents are being brought to the public's attention. The point, however, is that the idea that Spider-Man shouldn't help the cops because the cops are bad is a simplification of the problem. It also doesn't reflect what people want. People want the police to protect them. But they need the police to be trustworthy.

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    That's because of cell phone cameras. Police behavior hasn't changed so much as more incidents are being brought to the public's attention. The point, however, is that the idea that Spider-Man shouldn't help the cops because the cops are bad is a simplification of the problem. It also doesn't reflect what people want. People want the police to protect them. But they need the police to be trustworthy.
    Oh absolutely, Spider-Man is friendly and wants to help everyone and he isn't anti-police himself, but it does help and make for good stories if the cops aren't always his friends and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Sam Raimi may be a Republican but Kristen Dunst and Toby Maguire certainly are not..One other point, a very liberal actor ( Robert Ryan) noted that the characters he usually played ( law enforement or criminals) are against who I am in real life, but they feed the family. If you never heard of Ryan, go to IMDB and look him up, he has one of the great movie resumes ever. The Dirty Dozen and The Wild Bunch are just two of them
    I do in fact know who Robert Ryan is. Great actor, and yeah people in Hollywood work with all kinds. Clint Eastwood (one of the few Republicans who opposed the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, supports gun control, and is pro-gay marriage) and Sean Penn have worked together and others and so on.

    Spider-Man at heart is an adventure story so he attracts people of all kinds. And his basic story isn't directly political.

    Having said that, Spider-Man is a New Yorker and a New York hero, and New York City went heavily against Trump. So he should definitely be left-of-center in the current context, especially if he is to be a mainstream New Yorker.

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