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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The question of whether Democrats/ liberals are less diverse/ complex is itself a bit complicated. I haven't addressed it in this discussion, since it hadn't come up.
    mate, i'm not calling on you to address it. i'm just pointing out how what we write creates implications
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  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    mate, i'm not calling on you to address it. i'm just pointing out how what we write creates implications
    Reality is that we don't have time to address every potential implication, especially since we won't always know what baggage the other side brings to a discussion, or how some outside event might change the perceived context between when a point is made, and when it is read.

    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    dude. “cuck” stopped being used to communicate “cuckservative” a loooooong time ago

    that one isn’t even up for debate
    The phrase hasn't been in existence for a loooooong time, so the pedant in me can still debate it.

    For the most part, it should still have some kind of association with the idea of race traitors. The other context would be ironic (IE- National Review guys calling one another "cuck.")

    I get that phrases can also be used generically to mention any opponents to an organization, although someone who is unable to articulate what makes a pejorative unique is probably not someone whose ideas should be taken seriously (as is anyone who uses a phrase that means "race traitor.")

  3. #93
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Reality is that we don't have time to address every potential implication, especially since we won't always know what baggage the other side brings to a discussion, or how some outside event might change the perceived context between when a point is made, and when it is read.
    no, we don't have the time to address every implication... which.. is why i only addressed one that you made


    The phrase hasn't been in existence for a loooooong time, so the pedant in me can still debate it.

    For the most part, it should still have some kind of association with the idea of race traitors. The other context would be ironic (IE- National Review guys calling one another "cuck.")

    I get that phrases can also be used generically to mention any opponents to an organization, although someone who is unable to articulate what makes a pejorative unique is probably not someone whose ideas should be taken seriously (as is anyone who uses a phrase that means "race traitor.")
    are we actually gonna nitpick the term "loooong time" now? no, the term "cuck" doesn't reach back to the cretaceous period (i'm seriously in fear that you will now point out that the english language did not exist back then).

    a lazy google/image search will give ya multiple results on the popular use of the word, which is pretty much now just "wimp" laced with a little sjw. carl the cuck, justin trudeau etc etc

    the use of it in the breitbart comments section may be "weird", but it's common. the users' inability to articulate does not impact their effectiveness or ability to harm.
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  4. #94
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Hi, the term "SJW" lost all meaning (if it ever had one at all, erring on "no") when it became a shorthand term designed to attack, minimise and trivialize any voices speaking for diversity and any initiatives/movement designed to uplift racial and sexual minorities into equal standing and realms of greater visibility. It belongs in the bin with phrases like "get woke, go broke" and "red pilled".
    apparently it started off as positive before being co opted. maybe along the lines of “vegan warrior” and “wellness warrior”?
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Hi, the term "SJW" lost all meaning (if it ever had one at all, erring on "no") when it became a shorthand term designed to attack, minimise and trivialize any voices speaking for diversity and any initiatives/movement designed to uplift racial and sexual minorities into equal standing and realms of greater visibility. It belongs in the bin with phrases like "get woke, go broke" and "red pilled".
    Exactly.

    I don't understand why this forum's moderator is refusing to acknowledge the nastiness that the term carries with it. It's the same as going to bat for the term Feminazi.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    again, glad you caught that it was a gentle self-mocking of mine and lee’s stance as well as a riff on the “...you might be a redneck” joke

    i mean, i’ve spent the last few pages arguing against generalising people and then i go and generalise? i know you can put two and two “twogether”

    though if your fb profile picture is of you in armour on the back of a pick up truck, astride your doggo with a flag in your left hand and a fish in your right...then i am deeply sorry
    Cool. Well i'm going to go read a Spider-Man comic now.
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  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Exactly.

    I don't understand why this forum's moderator is refusing to acknowledge the nastiness that the term carries with it. It's the same as going to bat for the term Feminazi.
    I think you're arguing against a point I'm not making.

    You're talking about tone more than meaning (though it is hard to match the nastiness of calling someone anything with "Nazi" in it.)

    If the view is that the criticism of Social Justice Warriors as a group is unconnected with the question of effectiveness, we could consider examples of people labeled Social Justice Warriors, and whether they could be criticized for failing to fix the problem they're addressing. I don't want to be the one coming up with the examples, because I could be accused of cherry-picking.

    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    no, we don't have the time to address every implication... which.. is why i only addressed one that you made




    are we actually gonna nitpick the term "loooong time" now? no, the term "cuck" doesn't reach back to the cretaceous period (i'm seriously in fear that you will now point out that the english language did not exist back then).

    a lazy google/image search will give ya multiple results on the popular use of the word, which is pretty much now just "wimp" laced with a little sjw. carl the cuck, justin trudeau etc etc

    the use of it in the breitbart comments section may be "weird", but it's common. the users' inability to articulate does not impact their effectiveness or ability to harm.
    "Wimp" still fits the original porn-based meaning of "Cuck" which an analysis of recent images and memes suggests is still common (Why did I waste my time on that? It was not useful.)

    Though going after someone trans for being a wimp (especially in a context involving masculinity and sexual prowess) seems excessive.

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    "Wimp" still fits the original porn-based meaning of "Cuck" which an analysis of recent images and memes suggests is still common (Why did I waste my time on that? It was not useful.)

    Though going after someone trans for being a wimp (especially in a context involving masculinity and sexual prowess) seems excessive.
    there's overlap, sure (and to be clear i'm using "wimp" because it's the kid friendly version of the word starting with p). from my point of view, going after anyone for being a cuck is excessive and says more about the user's insecurity than the recipient.

    but yeah, a big portion of those memes aren't using the term as "cuckold" specifically. you might even have seen some of the spider-cuck videos and memes out there when you googled. this dictionary definition sums it up better than i can and why some attribute it to the lgbti community:

    noun
    noun: cuck; plural noun: cucks

    1.
    informal•US
    a weak or servile man (often used as a contemptuous term for a man with moderate or progressive political views).
    2.
    a man whose wife is sexually unfaithful; a cuckold.
    Last edited by boots; 04-20-2019 at 06:11 PM.
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    there's overlap, sure (and to be clear i'm using "wimp" because it's the kid friendly version of the word starting with p). from my point of view, going after anyone for being a cuck is excessive and says more about the user's insecurity than the recipient.

    but yeah, a big portion of those memes aren't using the term as "cuckold" specifically. you might even have seen some of the spider-cuck videos and memes out there when you googled. this dictionary definition sums it up better than i can:

    noun
    noun: cuck; plural noun: cucks

    1.
    informal•US
    a weak or servile man (often used as a contemptuous term for a man with moderate or progressive political views).
    2.
    a man whose wife is sexually unfaithful; a cuckold.
    There is something wrong with a guy who thinks it is okay for his woman to cheat on him..Does it mean he should cheat or abuse her? 100% NO. But being a cuck is something that should be unacceptable for a guy, and they need to change the behavior that allows her to get away with it. If however, the guy changes and she continues to cheat, then she needs to go.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I think you're arguing against a point I'm not making.

    You're talking about tone more than meaning (though it is hard to match the nastiness of calling someone anything with "Nazi" in it.)

    If the view is that the criticism of Social Justice Warriors as a group is unconnected with the question of effectiveness, we could consider examples of people labeled Social Justice Warriors, and whether they could be criticized for failing to fix the problem they're addressing. I don't want to be the one coming up with the examples, because I could be accused of cherry-picking.
    A word's tone and connotations is part of its meaning.

    Going to bat for what "what the real criticism against SJWs is" is like going to bat for "what the real criticism against feminazis is", "what the real criticism against trannies is", "what the real criticism against f****ts" is. When you adopt the language of bigots and bullies you can't then act like it's devoid of that tone and those connotations. You can't say "let's forget about the bad apples and look at what the valid criticism of feminazis is". It doesn't work that way.

    But if that's the precedent you want to set as forum moderator, go for it.

  11. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    There is something wrong with a guy who thinks it is okay for his woman to cheat on him..Does it mean he should cheat or abuse her? 100% NO. But being a cuck is something that should be unacceptable for a guy, and they need to change the behavior that allows her to get away with it. If however, the guy changes and she continues to cheat, then she needs to go.
    It would also be a nasty slur when untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    there's overlap, sure (and to be clear i'm using "wimp" because it's the kid friendly version of the word starting with p). from my point of view, going after anyone for being a cuck is excessive and says more about the user's insecurity than the recipient.

    but yeah, a big portion of those memes aren't using the term as "cuckold" specifically. you might even have seen some of the spider-cuck videos and memes out there when you googled. this dictionary definition sums it up better than i can and why some attribute it to the lgbti community:

    noun
    noun: cuck; plural noun: cucks

    1.
    informal•US
    a weak or servile man (often used as a contemptuous term for a man with moderate or progressive political views).
    2.
    a man whose wife is sexually unfaithful; a cuckold.
    This might get to a difference in understanding meaning. I don't follow memes as much.

    Tying this to Spider-Man, this highlights a problem with using recent political iconography. Things change so quickly that meanings and associations change, to say nothing of the possibility one group will adopt material in a different way.

    Granted, cuck was tainted from the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    A word's tone and connotations is part of its meaning.

    Going to bat for what "what the real criticism against SJWs is" is like going to bat for "what the real criticism against feminazis is", "what the real criticism against trannies is", "what the real criticism against f****ts" is. When you adopt the language of bigots and bullies you can't then act like it's devoid of that tone and those connotations. You can't say "let's forget about the bad apples and look at what the valid criticism of feminazis is". It doesn't work that way.

    But if that's the precedent you want to set as forum moderator, go for it.
    The other words you mention are slurs against protected classes, or associations of political movements with Nazism. SJW is not on that level.

    If the argument is SJW shouldn't be allowed because it's a pejorative against a political group, then every pejorative about any political group should not be allowed.

    I do get that nasty people have used SJW as a term, but we should be careful about letting that determine the acceptability of an idea, since that changes debates from discussing the topic to trying to figure out the nastiest person who has similar (but likely more extreme) views and tainting the other guy with the association.

    There is a utility in SJW as a phrase that suggests someone who goes too far for social justice, and likely hinders the greater cause. Feminazi and cuck were tainted from the start, given the origins of the phrases.

  12. #102
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post

    This might get to a difference in understanding meaning. I don't follow memes as much.
    i'm only using memes as a way to gauge current popular usage, which isn't a bad way to keep the finger on the pulse.

    but its also why i supplied a dictionary definition to balance that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Tying this to Spider-Man, this highlights a problem with using recent political iconography. Things change so quickly that meanings and associations change, to say nothing of the possibility one group will adopt material in a different way.
    it's a problem, certainly. but just because it's challenging doesn't mean a superhero comic should completely bypass it.
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  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I do get that nasty people have used SJW as a term,
    It's taken you this long to even acknowledge that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    but we should be careful about letting that determine the acceptability of an idea, since that changes debates from discussing the topic to trying to figure out the nastiest person who has similar (but likely more extreme) views and tainting the other guy with the association.

    There is a utility in SJW as a phrase that suggests someone who goes too far for social justice, and likely hinders the greater cause. Feminazi and cuck were tainted from the start, given the origins of the phrases.
    It's no good saying "it can be used in an innocent manner" but then completely ignoring that it usually isn't used in an innocent manner, and that it was brought into popular usage by Alt Right groups who certainly weren't using it in an innocent manner.

    To go back to my original point, it really sucks to say "The argument against (term) is (reasonable criticism)", and completely whitewash the fact that you probably wouldn't even have heard of (term) if not for the efforts of harassment campaigns and far-right groups whose arguments were rooted not in reasonable criticism, but bigotry.

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