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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Dark Helmet: I am your father’s brother’s nephew’s cousin’s former roommate.
    Lone Star: So what does that make us?
    Dark Helmet: Absolutely nothing.

    Obi Wan :Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you.
    Count Dooku : Don't be so sure, my young Jedi. You forget that he was once my apprentice, just as you were once his.

    The fact that Qui-Gon Jinn was trained by Count Dooku was in turn trained by Yoda really added nothing to the story (movie wise anyway) same with Dark Helmet's. It was like creating a link just to have one take it out and you would change absolutely nothing in the move.
    Well, it does add to the ambiguity of Dooku's position, given that the movie has been teetering over whether Dooku is a villain or not (Padme thinks he is, but the Jedi disagree, but we then just saw him plotting with known villains). The scene also works given that it does a good job of establishing Dooku's character (he masks his manipulations and ruthlessness with politeness). Whether connecting Dooku to two previously established characters paid off in the end or not, it was a backstory and it didn't harm anything either. Also, it contextualizes the duel with Yoda, making it more then just two people with no ties fighting each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    The Dooku thing does sort of slightly explain why Qui Gon was slightly unorthodox.

    Unfortunately although Qui-Gon was interesting, the OT pretty much implied that in his youth, Obi-Wan was reckless and a bit overconfident, and this perhaps had a role in Anakin's fall. ("So was I, if you remember; "I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda"). It was presumed by some fans that this is why Ewan Mcgregor was cast, as he did have a bit of a reputation as a "bad boy" actor at that point.

    Qui-Gon actually was Obi-Wan in earlier scripts, but Lucas decided to split the character pretty much in two, and instead of reckless Obi-Wan we sort of wound up with a Jedi who was more by-the-book than his master....and Obi-Wan's training really didn't have any major role in Anakin's downfall when you think about it. If anything, Obi-Wan was pretty much separated from Anakin both times when stuff went bad.
    Debatable; we only saw a fraction of their interactions (and patience didn't seem to be Kenobi's strongest suite with Anakin's outbursts). On the other hand, even if we did want to assume that at least some of Kenobi's taking the blame for Anakin's downfall was him being too hard on himself, his attitude with Yoda when stating his intent to train Anakin in TPM does fit pretty well with his reflections in the originals.
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  2. #62
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    There's been a fan theory that the three henchvillains of the prequels were intended to show aspects of Vader: Dark sider (Maul), fallen knight (Dooku), cyborg (Greivous).
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    There's been a fan theory that the three henchvillains of the prequels were intended to show aspects of Vader: Dark sider (Maul), fallen knight (Dooku), cyborg (Greivous).
    I don't know if that's exactly a fan-theory seeing as George Lucas absolutely intended for elements of the Prequels to be echoes of the Original Trilogy. In the case of Count Dooku his backstory is a lead-in to what happens to Anakin. His backstory with his one on one master is backwards and of course Anakin does not have the rank of master, but it all follows what eventually happens to Anakin.

    Anakin is;
    -A fallen Knight
    -Is a royal figure as Vader
    -Has control over his own army as its head (Dooku to the Droids as what Vader is to the Stormtroopers)
    -Intends to turn a Jedi out of respect for the past (Dooku for his love of Qui Gon and not wanting his apprentice killed if he can help it, and Vader to Luke for his love of Padme and what could've been).
    - Both are diplomats outside of being Palpatine's enforcer
    -And even in their respective final battles with Palpatine observing, the difference between them is that Anakin turned on the Jedi teachings where Luke wouldn't.

    It's not much for those who've seen the OT I'm sure, but the Prequels setting that up through its villains was definitely a thing.
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  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    I don't know if that's exactly a fan-theory seeing as George Lucas absolutely intended for elements of the Prequels to be echoes of the Original Trilogy. In the case of Count Dooku his backstory is a lead-in to what happens to Anakin. His backstory with his one on one master is backwards and of course Anakin does not have the rank of master, but it all follows what eventually happens to Anakin.

    Anakin is;
    -A fallen Knight
    -Is a royal figure as Vader
    -Has control over his own army as its head (Dooku to the Droids as what Vader is to the Stormtroopers)
    -Intends to turn a Jedi out of respect for the past (Dooku for his love of Qui Gon and not wanting his apprentice killed if he can help it, and Vader to Luke for his love of Padme and what could've been).
    - Both are diplomats outside of being Palpatine's enforcer
    -And even in their respective final battles with Palpatine observing, the difference between them is that Anakin turned on the Jedi teachings where Luke wouldn't.

    It's not much for those who've seen the OT I'm sure, but the Prequels setting that up through its villains was definitely a thing.
    Not quite; as the internal chronology shows, Dooku actually turned well before Qui-Gon died.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  5. #65
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Well, it does add to the ambiguity of Dooku's position, given that the movie has been teetering over whether Dooku is a villain or not (Padme thinks he is, but the Jedi disagree, but we then just saw him plotting with known villains). The scene also works given that it does a good job of establishing Dooku's character (he masks his manipulations and ruthlessness with politeness). Whether connecting Dooku to two previously established characters paid off in the end or not, it was a backstory and it didn't harm anything either. Also, it contextualizes the duel with Yoda, making it more then just two people with no ties fighting each other.



    Debatable; we only saw a fraction of their interactions (and patience didn't seem to be Kenobi's strongest suite with Anakin's outbursts). On the other hand, even if we did want to assume that at least some of Kenobi's taking the blame for Anakin's downfall was him being too hard on himself, his attitude with Yoda when stating his intent to train Anakin in TPM does fit pretty well with his reflections in the originals.
    If he had a larger roll it would have added something but when you look at the Yoda vs Dooku fight it doesn't have the same, Master apprentice fell that even Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader had in a New Hope before we even knew that they were master and apprentice.
    Though It seems like the Yoda legacy of teaching is not all that great. I'm sure that he had other students and all but I thought it was funny.

    Dooku- to the Dark Side
    Qui-Gon- unorthodox and defiant
    Obi-Wan - OK this one turned out okay
    Anakin - to the Dark Side
    Luke - shut him self off to the force thought about killing ben in his sleep
    Ben - to the Dark Side
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  6. #66
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    After reading the Age of Resistance book I liked it until I read the Star Wars Adventure Story with Finn. It's the same plot...
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    After reading the Age of Resistance book I liked it until I read the Star Wars Adventure Story with Finn. It's the same plot...
    Liked the Adventures version, never read the second one (yet).
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  8. #68
    Incredible Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Even with the expanded explanation of the story. I'm further convinced that this is beyond simplistic. This is outright garbage why waste the ink to say that not only is Finn Rey's neutered sidekick but he was also a simp before he was on the run. Why do I say this. Rogue One did an excellent job of show what ex-empire troopers that changed their philosophy and used their training to be badass looks like.

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