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  1. #31
    Mighty Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super4Ever View Post
    Loved Loeb’s run. Between the stories and McGuinesses’ art I enjoyed that period in Superman comics.
    Me too. Loeb & McGuinness were a great combination for Superman during that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adset View Post
    I would read a full-length book of Patrick Gerard's industry insider musings.
    Agreed. An inside look at the industry is always worth the read.

  2. #32
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    Unsurprisingly, reposted as an article by Rich here: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/04...ddie-berganza/

    With permission, but not with a link or mention of where from. Not clear if permission from Patrick or CBR.

    Anyway, as many others have said, it's a wonderful read. Thanks.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Clark_Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gar-El View Post
    Unsurprisingly, reposted as an article by Rich here: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/04...ddie-berganza/

    With permission, but not with a link or mention of where from. Not clear if permission from Patrick or CBR.

    Anyway, as many others have said, it's a wonderful read. Thanks.
    Patrick was quoting me for his initial reply, wherein I had mentioned that Loeb left a lot of plots dangling that were never resolved. Patrick gave a great insiders reason as to why that happened, but I feel like the BC article should have at least mentioned what prompted Patrick to post (not me specifically, I just mean the thread in general where we were all discussing it). I'd hate to think anyone in the business with power might see that article and think Patrick was just dishing insider info on a whim & perhaps not consider him for something. Or maybe I'm overthinking it.
    "Darkseid...always hated music..."

    Every post I make, it should be assumed by the reader that the following statement is attached: "It's all subjective. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for you, and vice versa, and that's ok. You may have a different opinion on it, but this is mine. That's the wonderful thing about being a comics fan, it's all subjective."

  4. #34
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    Rich asked me for permission. Haven’t seen the article.

    I doubt unless a lot of context was omitted that anyone would mistake me for an insider.

    Also: the bulk of my insight is on Eddie and Jeph, neither of whom work in comics last I checked.

    I relaxed quite a bit on any confidentiality once Jeph stopped doing comics because it’s not like he’s being deprived of work if I talk about this stuff.

    He had some stuff planned circa his Superman run I was excited about. A giant monster/Pokémon mashup that became a subplot but which was going to be a treasury book with McGuiness. A Young Justice/Scream mashup with Brainiac 13 as the villain.

    That stuff isn’t going to happen any more than my mashup of The Cleric from Byrne Krypton and Beppo. They wanted to go Silver-Age with Krypton and I was asked by Jeph to help massage the details so that nothing got erased. I figured out that most of the evidence of Byrne’s Krypton came from the Eradicator which came from the Cleric so I was spitballing stuff that involved the Cleric not being dead and being a new rogues gallery member tied to Beppo who would be handled like the Cleric just with no universal translator as a fully intelligent simian struggling to communicate but who gets mistaken for an ape. That was obviously tenuous at the time and useless now. There was a level of care for stuff being set aside. But see? That’s an example of something useless. And not really insider-y except that it shows intent. If it were insider-y, it would have been bought and published.

    That said, if I’ve overstepped, Jeph knows how to reach me. And I doubt anyone still in comics cares unless they’re scared I’ll spill something usable. I don’t think I’ve done that.

  5. #35
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    Rich asked me for permission. Haven’t seen the article.

    I doubt unless a lot of context was omitted that anyone would mistake me for an insider.

    Also: the bulk of my insight is on Eddie and Jeph, neither of whom work in comics last I checked.

    I relaxed quite a bit on any confidentiality once Jeph stopped doing comics because it’s not like he’s being deprived of work if I talk about this stuff.

    He had some stuff planned circa his Superman run I was excited about. A giant monster/Pokémon mashup that became a subplot but which was going to be a treasury book with McGuiness. A Young Justice/Scream mashup with Brainiac 13 as the villain.

    That stuff isn’t going to happen any more than my mashup of The Cleric from Byrne Krypton and Beppo. They wanted to go Silver-Age with Krypton and I was asked by Jeph to help massage the details so that nothing got erased. I figured out that most of the evidence of Byrne’s Krypton came from the Eradicator which came from the Cleric so I was spitballing stuff that involved the Cleric not being dead and being a new rogues gallery member tied to Beppo who would be handled like the Cleric just with no universal translator as a fully intelligent simian struggling to communicate but who gets mistaken for an ape. That was obviously tenuous at the time and useless now. There was a level of care for stuff being set aside. But see? That’s an example of something useless. And not really insider-y except that it shows intent. If it were insider-y, it would have been bought and published.

    That said, if I’ve overstepped, Jeph knows how to reach me. And I doubt anyone still in comics cares unless they’re scared I’ll spill something usable. I don’t think I’ve done that.
    Thanks for the insights, man. It’s a shame that Loeb’s run got so derailed by corporate/editorial nonsense and family tragedy. I really enjoyed the Superman books during this period until it became clear that behind the scenes shenanigans were messing things up.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Thanks for the insights, man. It’s a shame that Loeb’s run got so derailed by corporate/editorial nonsense and family tragedy. I really enjoyed the Superman books during this period until it became clear that behind the scenes shenanigans were messing things up.
    Yeah.

    To clarify on the Beppo/Eradicator Thing:

    Not approved but would have been a Secret Files piece for a Return to Krypton follow-up.

    My take was that the Cleric was part of a movement dedicated to the extermination of Kryptonian culture who took a Kryptonian memory pod created by Kem-L and refashioned it as The Eradicator. The Eradicator was to be given a negative, propagandized version of Kryptonian history and send to erase/replace evidence of Krypton. Cleric’s movement was going to be devoted to poisoning the galaxy against all dead cultures as part of a Darwinian worldview that wanted the living to hate the dead so as not to replicate their mistakes.

    We’d find out Cleric stages the handoff of the Eradicator to Superman and pretended to die.

    His nephew B’Po would be trying to thwart his uncle but nobody could understand him. In the end, B’Po piggybacks on Superman’s hyperspace trail from Krypton to earth in his own ship (making him sort of a stowaway in Superman’s rocket) but after a series of miscommunications and accidental destruction, B’Po winds up in a government lab, unable to warn Superman and being prepped for dissection.

    I was arguing to have a follow-up where Cleric comes to earth and Eradicator discovers Cleric corrupted his programming but not before Cleric turns him against Superman.

  7. #37
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    And while we’re discussing stuff:

    Superman #178 was derived from the concept for a pitch I had.

    I only got a special thanks because all that got used was Uncle Sam getting corrupted by Lex Luthor’s presidency and going on a xenophobic punching spree against Superman.

    My pitch was for a 4 parter, with the hopes I’d get to co-write a chapter.

    Basic premise started off the same but ended not with a handshake but with Sam swallowing Superman whole.

    Superman awakes to find himself in an otherdimensional realm inside Sam called The American Dream. George Washington is chopping down a cherry tree when Superman arrives and the whole thing is Superman fighting his way through American mythology chronologically. Teams with Pecos Bill and Paul Bunyan, gets split into Superman Blue and Superman Gray, fights a propagandized version of WWII, saves Kennedy, the whole time hunting the corruption inside Sam which I think I was calling the Xenovore or something like that. Xenovore would be working with the Nazis, trying to suppress people and raise hatred of foreigners. We’d see Luthor’s election made Uncle Sam susceptible to the Xenovore.

    The part I was having the most fun with — never made it into the actual pitch — was making Paul Bunyan and his ox Babe into Kirby characters as a riff on Thor at Marvel.

    Jeph was basically like, “Hold your horses! I’ll try to get the first premise through and see about getting you backups.”

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    And while we’re discussing stuff:

    Superman #178 was derived from the concept for a pitch I had.

    I only got a special thanks because all that got used was Uncle Sam getting corrupted by Lex Luthor’s presidency and going on a xenophobic punching spree against Superman.

    My pitch was for a 4 parter, with the hopes I’d get to co-write a chapter.

    Basic premise started off the same but ended not with a handshake but with Sam swallowing Superman whole.

    Superman awakes to find himself in an otherdimensional realm inside Sam called The American Dream. George Washington is chopping down a cherry tree when Superman arrives and the whole thing is Superman fighting his way through American mythology chronologically. Teams with Pecos Bill and Paul Bunyan, gets split into Superman Blue and Superman Gray, fights a propagandized version of WWII, saves Kennedy, the whole time hunting the corruption inside Sam which I think I was calling the Xenovore or something like that. Xenovore would be working with the Nazis, trying to suppress people and raise hatred of foreigners. We’d see Luthor’s election made Uncle Sam susceptible to the Xenovore.

    The part I was having the most fun with — never made it into the actual pitch — was making Paul Bunyan and his ox Babe into Kirby characters as a riff on Thor at Marvel.

    Jeph was basically like, “Hold your horses! I’ll try to get the first premise through and see about getting you backups.”
    Damn that actually sounds really cool. You should pitch it to DC as a standalone story, I’d buy and read it.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Clark_Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    Rich asked me for permission. Haven’t seen the article.

    I doubt unless a lot of context was omitted that anyone would mistake me for an insider.

    Also: the bulk of my insight is on Eddie and Jeph, neither of whom work in comics last I checked.

    I relaxed quite a bit on any confidentiality once Jeph stopped doing comics because it’s not like he’s being deprived of work if I talk about this stuff.

    He had some stuff planned circa his Superman run I was excited about. A giant monster/Pokémon mashup that became a subplot but which was going to be a treasury book with McGuiness. A Young Justice/Scream mashup with Brainiac 13 as the villain.

    That stuff isn’t going to happen any more than my mashup of The Cleric from Byrne Krypton and Beppo. They wanted to go Silver-Age with Krypton and I was asked by Jeph to help massage the details so that nothing got erased. I figured out that most of the evidence of Byrne’s Krypton came from the Eradicator which came from the Cleric so I was spitballing stuff that involved the Cleric not being dead and being a new rogues gallery member tied to Beppo who would be handled like the Cleric just with no universal translator as a fully intelligent simian struggling to communicate but who gets mistaken for an ape. That was obviously tenuous at the time and useless now. There was a level of care for stuff being set aside. But see? That’s an example of something useless. And not really insider-y except that it shows intent. If it were insider-y, it would have been bought and published.

    That said, if I’ve overstepped, Jeph knows how to reach me. And I doubt anyone still in comics cares unless they’re scared I’ll spill something usable. I don’t think I’ve done that.
    Understood Patrick. I'm just a worrier at heart, so I'm happy to hear you were contacted directly.

    By the way, that idea of Cleric feeding Eradicator a false narrative that gets passed on to Clark initially is absolutely brilliant. Such a thoughtful way to retcon Krypton that doesn't involve time crises or universal alterations. Love it.
    "Darkseid...always hated music..."

    Every post I make, it should be assumed by the reader that the following statement is attached: "It's all subjective. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for you, and vice versa, and that's ok. You may have a different opinion on it, but this is mine. That's the wonderful thing about being a comics fan, it's all subjective."

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I enjoyed Loeb's run. After so long with the Triangle era crew it was nice to get some new voices, and McGuiness on art was great. I dont normally go for the cartoonish, manga style art but McG always makes it work and it was really fitting for the high-concept stuff Loeb was often doing. I suppose it doesn't hurt that he lives (or did, anyway) in my town and would visit my LCS. Never did run into him, but it was cool knowing he was a local.

    Not all of it worked for me though. I wasn't terribly thrilled with how Y2K played out, even if certain parts of it were pretty good. President Lex has a very unsatisfying, rushed finale. I dont think a lot of the pre-Crisis elements they brought back really "fit" in the post-Crisis foundation. At the time I hadn't yet truly discovered the glory of pre-Crisis Superman so I was much more against the return of things like Kara and Krypto and Silver Age Krypton than I am now (I now rightfully understand that all those things are practically essential ). But even now, when I've come to generally favor pre-Crisis, I don't think Loeb managed to make the post/pre fusion work. It just felt awkward and unwieldy. I dont think anyone could have pulled that off at the time; that was just two very different approaches and I dont think a organic merger was possible.

    Our Worlds At War was a lot of crazy big fun; just a summer blockbuster cosmic superhero story long before the Avengers hit theaters. Probably my favorite Event until Sinestro Corps War. President Lex was great while it lasted even if it ended raw. Metallo was fun, the new Toyman was great (even if I did love the child killing psychopath; what a great, vile villain!). I thought the idea of Clark seeing a therapist after OW@W was interesting and viable.

    Like others have said, it started strong and ended up sputtering out, often for reasons beyond Loeb's control or blame. But I'd recommend it. It's got humor and heart and a lot of bright colors and cool power moments. Honestly, I think it'd appeal to a lot of MCU fans; it's very similar in tone. Or at least it seems so to me now; I haven't read those issues in years so my memory could be questionable.

    And its always fun to read your posts, Patrick. Haven't noticed your name around lately. If you've recently returned, welcome back! And if I've just missed your posts, that's my loss.
    Last edited by Ascended; 05-01-2019 at 06:41 PM.
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  11. #41
    Unapologetic Feminist Shadowcat's Avatar
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    I loved it. After Kelly finally left, the Superbooks were hit or miss until Kurt Busiek and Geoff Johns took over.

  12. #42

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    I've enjoyed reading the posts that give us insight into what was going on at DC at the time.

    However, I'm glad that a lot of the story ideas outlined here never happened.

    Comics writers' obsession with bringing back the Silver Age and movie fans' obsession with the Donner Superman are what's killing the character.

    Superman needs to move forward and not constantly be handled by people who always want to look backward and rehash the past.

    I'm sorry, but I don't think bringing Beppo back is the answer.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    The triangle era had got really stale by the time it ended.

    Jeph Loeb's era was exactly what was needed in many ways - Much more dynamic and visually appealing.

    Unfortunately I quite hated it.

    The Jeph Loeb stories seemed kind of shallow. Outside of I Kill Giants, I just don't get on with Joe Kelly's writing. Joe Casey is good, but mixed in with everything else, it didn't work for me at all.

    The biggest crime though was the characterisation of Lois. Under Loeb, she became a bully, putting Clark down at every opportunity - a characterisation which carried over into Smallville.

    Shame, as I was really hyped for this run.

  14. #44
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Despite the new coat of paint, it was still the triangle era at that point. Casey, Schultz , and DeMatteis seemed stuck with the heavy lifting, working on Superman in the classic way while the other two did a prototype of widescreen comics. Kelly was a really smart pick to hit the young male demographic, but his Superman stint hasn't aged so well. It's like the opposite of his Marvel work that gets appreciated so often in hindsight.
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