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  1. #61
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    I feel the same way about the John Stewart Green Lantern. I definitely remember the Ryan Reynolds' GL movie. I grew up with the Justice League cartoons and for me John Stewart is Green Lantern, and I was let down as hell when they announced going with boring Hal Jordan for the movie, and to this day, I am unable to forgive Geoff Johns and DC for not reading the room and making Stewart "the GL" in the core comics and franchise. They should have made the cartoon Justice League into the actual comics Justice League and also the one in the Snyder movie.
    Im sorry but Hal Jordan is so much better and important than Jon Stewart. Just because he’s your first Green Lantern doesn’t make him the definitive or best. Same goes for Wally West as the Flash and let’s be real here the only reason Dini used Jon was because he was black (it may have also had to do with Hal being in exile in the comics too)

    To put it bluntly Jon straight up sucks in the comics. No writer has been able to replicate Justice League’s characterization of him. I don’t get why people hate the Silver Age and silver age heroes like Barry and Hal

    Also if DC focused on Jon then Kyle fanboys would cry too

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    Aren’t Iron Man, Thor and Captain America consider the Big Three of marvel?
    Jameson laugh.jpg

    Marvel didn't really have a "Big Three". It has a Big One (Spider-Man), and a really big team (X-Men). At a distant third, you might have Fantastic Four but that was more contestible. Spider-Man and X-Men were far far ahead of the rest. Do you think it's an accident that when Marvel were optioning rights to bail out of bankruptcy, Spider-Man and X-Men were the ones that studios had most interest in?

    Iron Man, Thor and Captain America were considered the "big three" of the Avengers which you know didn't have the sales, fame, influence that the X-Men did. Furthermore, calling it a "Big Three" is also a misnomer because it implies a level of equality between the three. Of the lot Iron Man was always the least prestigious of the bunch, there wasn't a single run in the classic era (and arguably still hasn't been) as good and important as Simonson's Thor, Englehart on Captain America, Roger Stern on Captain America not to mention the classic Kirby Thor and Kirby Cap issues. There have been above average Iron Man stories and runs (Michelinie, Fraction, Ellis briefly) but even those stories don't rate on the level of the best Thor, the best Cap...leave alone the best FF, X-Men, Spider-Man.

    I think that is a bit of a stretch to say nobody knew them.
    The 1000 people that Jim Shooter talked about didn't know them.

    The Ultimates did a lot to revitalize the Avengers
    That was comics in the 2000s, no matter how much they sell, it doesn't come close to mainstream exposure and raising out of obscurity.

    which is where the mcu pulls a lot of its material from and also why they went forward with an Avengers movie instead of sitting back and letting Fox and Sony make movies for them.
    That happened because Marvel wasn't getting enough revenue from the movies since they sold the rights to Fox and Sony at "over-the-barrel" prices because they were desperate. The MCU originated for pure profit reasons not out of real love and affection for the Avengers over other properties. David Maisel, the godfather of the MCU, figured out that the characters they still had rights to would lead to the Avengers and if Marvel created its studios and made the movies themselves they get a bigger cut.

    Even the awful Heroes Reborn reboot by Lee and Liefeld showed there was interest for the Avengers characters
    It showed that Marvel was doing all it can to maximize and generate interest out of all its properties, which has always been the priority for them, it was the reason for the shared universe in the first place, it was the reason they resorted to chicanery to make sure characters like Namor and the title of the Human Torch stayed with them and so on.

    The fact that Marvel outsourced Avengers to Image studios indicates the lower level of prestige it had at the time compared to Spider-Man and X-Men.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    He just comes off as James Gunn’s self insert character
    Hmm...and who did James Gunn declare was the character that was closest to him in these movies?

    "Rocket is me" -- James Gunn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    I’d have put pre mcu iron man at the same level as the Flash or Aquaman
    Not even close. Thanks to Superfriends...Aquaman was widely known. The Flash was DC's biggest comic for a while in the late 50s, and that led to songs about Barry Allen.

    Whereas Iron Man never had a successful TV Show before, nor a successful cartoon series (yes a lot of people liked the 90s show but it wasn't very famous). The biggest comic series that was popular among civilians that featured Iron Man was the 1984 Secret Wars and it was Rhodey underneath the suit in that story, not Tony.

    Leaving aside the top tier, the following characters were more well known than Iron Man -- Aquaman, The Flash, Wonder Woman (the Lynda Carter show put her over), the Hulk (thanks to the TV Show), even the Silver Surfer who had a big vogue in the 60s and endured in memory afterwards, the Fantastic Four (Fred and Barney teamed up with The Thing). Going outside Marvel/DC, Iron Man wasn't as famous as Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles either.

  4. #64
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    Actually Mark Waid's Captain America sold fairly well and Liefeld even asked Waid to write the dialogue for Heroes Reborn

    Marvel also sold Blade and Daredevil and Punisher and Ghost Rider are those guys Marvel's A-Listers? Or maybe it is because they fit the late 90s early 2000s build of being edgy leather clad dark and gritty badasses. X Men also didn't take off until after Chris Claremont and Jim Lee's 90s X Men and especially the animated series. Keep in mind X-Men #1 is the single most sold single comic issue in history so of course Fox would think it could translate to at least some mainstream appeal

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    Actually Mark Waid's Captain America sold fairly well and Liefeld even asked Waid to write the dialogue for Heroes Reborn
    We were talking about the Avengers and not Captain America individually. And that's irrelevant.

    X Men also didn't take off until after Chris Claremont and Jim Lee's 90s X Men
    Claremont's run on X-Men was the biggest selling superhero comic from the late 70s all through the 80s. Not just Marvel but the entire industry. It was the benchmark. And that in the last decade where comics sales were at its highs before the collapse of the 90s.

  6. #66
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    "Rocket is me" -- James Gunn.

    Really? you are telling me that the empty headed "totally cool dude" Star Lord who loves 80s pop culture isn't his self insert?

    Not even close. Thanks to Superfriends...Aquaman was widely known. The Flash was DC's biggest comic for a while in the late 50s, and that led to songs about Barry Allen.
    Super-Friends? That 70s cartoon? If anything that hurt Aquaman since people only know him as the goofy guy who rides on seahorses. I guess Firestar is a beloved Marvel icon right?

    Yes Barry Allen was and is the face of the Silver Age but that was a long time ago. Wally West arguably eclipsed Barry Allen as the definitive Flash even to this day despite DC shoving Barry into everything. I still see people who were upset Wally wasn't the Flash for the CW series or the movie. And comics really don't matter to casual movie goers. Avengers use to be the Marvel team but eventually fell to the wayside of the Fantastic Four and X-Men. As an example of how influential certain shows are when Green Lantern the movie came out I saw people disappointed that John Stewart wasn't the main character because that was what they saw in Justice League TAS. Same goes for the lineup of the JL movie not having Hawkgirl, despite never being a founding member, and replacing Martian Manhunter with Cyborg. Keep in mind Barry had been dead for 23 years after COIE and thus basically wiped from any dc related media hence why the JL animated series used Wally since he was the contemporary Flash. If Wally was still the main Flash instead of Flash 2 then the CW series would probably be about Wally (I know Barry's legacy is important for Wally in the comics but again the JL series never mentioned Barry and basically composited Barry and Wally). And hell I still see people saying Flash was a rip off of Quicksilver simply because he was in XMen and Avengers movies before Flash appeared in Justice League movie. Again at one point the Avengers were Marvel's All Star team.

    Also if songs are your criteria how many black sabbath songs did the X Men get?

    Whereas Iron Man never had a successful TV Show before, nor a successful cartoon series (yes a lot of people liked the 90s show but it wasn't very famous). The biggest comic series that was popular among civilians that featured Iron Man was the 1984 Secret Wars and it was Rhodey underneath the suit in that story, not Tony.
    Neither did Blade or Daredevil

    Leaving aside the top tier, the following characters were more well known than Iron Man -- Aquaman, The Flash, Wonder Woman (the Lynda Carter show put her over), the Hulk (thanks to the TV Show), even the Silver Surfer who had a big vogue in the 60s and endured in memory afterwards, the Fantastic Four (Fred and Barney teamed up with The Thing). Going outside Marvel/DC, Iron Man wasn't as famous as Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles either.
    Again I disagree. Even if people "knew" about Aquaman it hurt his image more as an overly goofy and impractical superhero basically becoming the butt of jokes. Again Barry Allen was dead for 23 years and again fell to the wayside and outside of one short lived TV series the Flash never really got anything else and certainly not for Wally. He'd get a cameo in Superman TAS and then a mainstay in Justice League but that is about it.

    And TMNT cartoon was nothing like the comics which was a niche self parody of gritty comics and basically a call back to Daredevil. All the ninjas turtles had the same red masks (on the colored cover art) and were all just balls of rage and edge. The animated show is what gave them their colorful masks and personalities (even Raph was more of a goof ball than the angry one until the movies). Shredder also died early on in the comics and had no personal connection to Splinter. Krang was also a TV original villain along with a ton of the ninja turtles characters. April was also a computer programmer and didn't wear a yellow jumpsuit or have red hair. Pretty much nobody even today really recognizes the classic Mirage TMNT comics, only the cartoon which later comics mimicked like the IDW or archie series. Hell the Mirage comic only ended in 2014 yet most people don't realize it went on that long. This is partially why I consider the Ninja Turtles as more cartoon characters than comic book characters

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    We were talking about the Avengers and not Captain America individually. And that's irrelevant.
    And I guarantee you if Superman and Batman weren't tied to the JLA no one would know who they are. How do I know this? Ask a casual fan about the JSA

    Claremont's run on X-Men was the biggest selling superhero comic from the late 70s all through the 80s. Not just Marvel but the entire industry. It was the benchmark. And that in the last decade where comics sales were at its highs before the collapse of the 90s.
    Are you talking about series or issues? I've seen numerous best selling comic books and I've only ever seen the 91 X-Men ranked that high. Yes Giant Sized X Men did boost them in popularity but 1991 X-Men is what cemented it as one of Marvel's best. Why do you think the X-Men animated series launched in 1992 instead of the 80s?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    Really? you are telling me that the empty headed "totally cool dude" Star Lord who loves 80s pop culture isn't his self insert?
    What do you know about James Gunn in his personal life to feel so strongly about this.

    Super-Friends? That 70s cartoon?
    An extremely popular and famous cartoon whose title is still a known reference.

    If anything that hurt Aquaman since people only know him as the goofy guy who rides on seahorses.
    The fact is it made him famous, that the version has become unfashionable is irrelevant.

    I guess Firestar is a beloved Marvel icon right?
    To some extent yeah. I mean for a while she was more famous than Iron Man was.

    Avengers use to be the Marvel team but eventually fell to the wayside of the Fantastic Four and X-Men.
    You have it completely backwards. In the 60s and 70s, Fantastic Four was Marvel's biggest team and title. Then in the late 70s-early 2000s, it became the X-Men (and since 2019, it's X-Men once again). The Avengers biggest era was quite recent from 2004, when Bendis wrote New Avengers to when Jonathan Hickman wrote it in the 2010s but for most of its history it was never the pre-eminent team in Marvel in terms of sales.

    Also if songs are your criteria how many black sabbath songs did the X Men get?
    Black Sabbath is the heavy metal band that's not Metallica right, nor hard rock like AC/DC (the biggest band in the planet in that genre). And few people thought that song refers to a Marvel character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    And I guarantee you if Superman and Batman weren't tied to the JLA no one would know who they are. How do I know this? Ask a casual fan about the JSA
    Marvel and DC are not at all similar and you can't compare the JL to the Avengers and Superman and Batman to the Avengers lead heroes. The DC wasn't created or built around a shared universe, all its creations were originally standalone that were merged together over time. Marvel's biggest teams -- Fantastic Four, The X-Men -- were created as teams first and the characters were made to fit a particular theme in which the book ran.

    Are you talking about series or issues?
    The X-Men were the biggest superhero ongoing comic in the 80s. Top-seller for Marvel and top-seller for the industry.

    I've seen numerous best selling comic books and I've only ever seen the 91 X-Men ranked that high.
    As a single issue, that comic is the strongest there is, but as a title and ongoing, as well as sub-books and so on, X-Men was the industry benchmark in the 80s.

    Why do you think the X-Men animated series launched in 1992 instead of the 80s?
    Right people at the right time and the right place, I suppose. The X-Men being that they are more adult in content, dealing with violence, bigotry, sexuality, and also evolution (which is offensive to many states in USA) is not an all-ages title inherently speaking unlike Spider-Man. I mean that's the reason why there has never been a single Daredevil cartoon because the content of his stories are PG13 to R. So in animation, Daredevil and Kingpin appear as cameos or regular villain for Spider-Man. The most popular X-Man, Wolverine has sharp claws that tear through his skin and gut people bloody. It takes some creativity to nerf him. So the Fox Network in the 90s managed to find the right nice for the audience of 12-14 year olds to make a cartoon show with more edge to it, likewise BTAS at WB was a big crossover success that led to the great period of quality superhero animation from the 90s to about the late 2000s. (Last 10 years has been a disaster).

  9. #69
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    What do you know about James Gunn in his personal life to feel so strongly about this.
    His filmography and just general attitude in interviews or twitter or whatever

    You also ignored my question of why Fox bought out B list heroes like Blade, Ghost Rider and Daredevil

    To some extent yeah. I mean for a while she was more famous than Iron Man was.
    You honestly think casual fans knew who Firestar was?

    You have it completely backwards. In the 60s and 70s, Fantastic Four was Marvel's biggest team and title. Then in the late 70s-early 2000s, it became the X-Men (and since 2019, it's X-Men once again). The Avengers biggest era was quite recent from 2004, when Bendis wrote New Avengers to when Jonathan Hickman wrote it in the 2010s but for most of its history it was never the pre-eminent team in Marvel in terms of sales.
    Is that why Avengers is the best selling Marvel series behind Captain America, X Men and Spider-Man? (Keep in mind Captain America predated the Avengers by 11 years). Fantastic four aren’t even in the top 10 for all time comic series

    Also X Men was cancelled in the 1970 due to poor sales. So no the X Men were not the biggest team during 70s. They didn’t really take off until the late 80s

    Marvel and DC are not at all similar and you can't compare the JL to the Avengers and Superman and Batman to the Avengers lead heroes. The DC wasn't created or built around a shared universe, all its creations were originally standalone that were merged together over time. Marvel's biggest teams -- Fantastic Four, The X-Men -- were created as teams first and the characters were made to fit a particular theme in which the book ran.
    What does that have to do with anything? Dc had the Doom Patrol and the Metal Men as “team first” teams too and to an extent even Teen Titans with the exception of Robin and Wonder Girl the TT were all new characters. Regardless do you think it is a coincidence the Avengers shows up 3 years after the JLA? If anything marvel’s universe was much less planned out given some of the jarring differences between their titles like how the X Men and Spider Man are hated by the people yet the Avengers and Fantastic 4 are beloved heroes in universe

    The X-Men were the biggest superhero ongoing comic in the 80s. Top-seller for Marvel and top-seller for the industry.
    Do you have a website that shows their sales numbers?

    Right people at the right time and the right place, I suppose. The X-Men being that they are more adult in content, dealing with violence, bigotry, sexuality, and also evolution (which is offensive to many states in USA) is not an all-ages title inherently speaking unlike Spider-Man.
    And Spider-Man never had sensitive topics? The early Uncanny X Men while obviously had parallels to the civil rights movements were still all ages comics and could’ve used that as a template similar to how despite having superficial similarities to the 90s X Men based most of its writing off the 80s. Also I don’t think people would care about “evolution” which isn’t even real evolution being mentioned in this context
    Last edited by Dboi2001; 08-09-2020 at 12:24 AM.

  10. #70
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    Back in the day, way before the MCU, Hulk was considered one of the big ones. He had his own prime time show and everything.

    Everyone knew who the Hulk was.

  11. #71
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    Back in the 70s and 80s marvels big two was spider-man and the hulk. Thanks to the tv shows. Those were the two marvel heroes everyone knew. Even japan knew spidey thanks to the japan series. Ironic thing is miss america was more known there then captain america thanks to her getting her own tv show in japan!

    Hulk had toys, lunchboxes and cartoons.




    Super-Friends? That 70s cartoon? If anything that hurt Aquaman since people only know him as the goofy guy who rides on seahorses. I guess Firestar is a beloved Marvel icon right?
    Superfriends lasted three decades from the 60s to the 80s and kids of those decades grew up on them. Yes aquaman was well known due to them and a 60s filmation cartoon joke hero or not. He was more known then iron man, cap or thor then. Heck gleek the super monkey was more known then iron man. This is why people today call sub-mariner a aquaman rip-off when it's the other way around.

    Everyone knew aquaman. Heck my grandma knew who aquaman was!

    Why do you think the X-Men animated series launched in 1992 instead of the 80s?
    It did. It was canned after one episode! First episode was called "pryde of the x-men." It was it's last episode also.

  12. #72
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    1 Starlord had no real public image out side the comics.

    B. It is just a guy with a space gun. Lot of room to put a stamp on that. No iconic Hammer, Shield or Armor to work around.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    His filmography and just general attitude in interviews or twitter or whatever
    In other words you know nothing whatsoever about Gunn and it's just your projection. You also don't know the interviews well since I quoted one interview where Gunn said explicitly, "Rocket [Raccoon] is me".

    You also ignored my question of why Fox bought out B list heroes like Blade, Ghost Rider and Daredevil
    Because you miss the forest for the trees.

    You honestly think casual fans knew who Firestar was?
    Far more people saw Spider-Man and the Amazing Friends than read the comics, so yeah in the 80s more people knew who Firestar was than Iron Man. I say this by the way as someone who's not even a fan of that show (and for that matter most Spider-man cartoons).

    Is that why Avengers is the best selling Marvel series behind Captain America, X Men and Spider-Man?
    It's not.

    (Keep in mind Captain America predated the Avengers by 11 years).
    Captain America comics did very well in its very early years of the late 30s and early 40s but even then he was never as big as Superman, Batman or Fawcett Captain Marvel (which was actually the biggest superhero of the 40s in terms of sales and cultural appeal). Sales of the comic declined after World War 2 (alongside all superhero comics with only a few exceptions) and at that time Captain America was made into a jingoistic commie-smashing hero (who was later retconned into an imposter when Lee-Kirby claimed that the real Cap went into ice, and then Englehart made that commie-smashing comic a failed clone and impostor). Captain America was cancelled during the 50s.

    Also X Men was cancelled in the 1970 due to poor sales. So no the X Men were not the biggest team during 70s.
    Giant Size X-Men #1 was published in 1975, Claremont and John Byrne's legendary run on the title (Phoenix Saga-Dark Phoenix Saga) ran from 1976-1980. That was the period when sales on the title went way up and by the end of the 70s, the X-Men was Marvel's top-selling team book, and in the decade after that they rocketed to Marvel's top title period (beating out Spider-Man) and then became top selling comics title across the industry.

    They didn’t really take off until the late 80s
    I honestly don't know where you are getting your information from. But you have been consistently wrong and incorrect in almost every argument you are making. The X-Men were indeed cancelled and went into reprints in the early 70s, but Len Wein, Cockrum, Claremont and Byrne reversed that dramatically and drastically, going from lowest lows to highest highs in less than a decade.

    Regardless do you think it is a coincidence the Avengers shows up 3 years after the JLA?
    Fantastic Four showed up in 1961 one year after JL and that was the title intended to be Marvel's response to the Justice League. The Avengers was just a way to put together characters whose titles weren't doing well as well as other IP they had rights to, so as to bring them in the expanded continuity.

    And Spider-Man never had sensitive topics?
    Some issues and stories yes but on the whole it's a comedy series and that allows animation producers and other licensees to make kid friendly versions. In fact Marvel Editorial had mandate in the 80s to ensure that Spider-Man comics had a ceiling of not doing stories that go dark (for instance a story of Spider-Man fathering a child out of wedlock with Felicia Hardy was vetoed in the early 80s because of morality clauses they signed).

    The early Uncanny X Men while obviously had parallels to the civil rights movements
    Only in the '70s under Claremont. Lee-Kirby's UXM wasn't a civil-rights allegory, it was a generic superhero adventure team.

    Most of what people assume about the X-Men was created and inserted by Chris Claremont and wasn't there originally in Lee-Kirby's run.

  14. #74
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    IMO, Nick Fury was the character that was changed the most to resemble his MCU counterpart.

  15. #75
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    The big 3 to me always felt like Spidey/Hulk/Wolverine

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