UXM 16 Spoilers

[Killerbee911]

a poll? that's what you're going off of? how many people voted? 500? Cannonball was on an x-team. he was a member during onslaught, as well as on rogues uncanny team; and again i say, he was in the avengers and got some progress. not sure why you don't think any of that doesn't matter or count.

A poll is more real and factual information than what you are going on which is strictly opinion but anyways poll was just an example to show after the top 5 or 6 X-men fans are pretty varied on who they like I never said it was the end all. The poll provides a good enough glimpse enough for people question the very thing you said which Cyclops, Wolverine, Jean Grey, and Colossus are important and popular therefore you have to use them over other characters. Where I simply pointed out someone like Colossus is less popular than X-23 and Emma Frost.

X-23 and Emma actually got character development in X-men main books and fans got to like them. I was very clear in what I said "in an X-men book" about Cannonball no writer ever developed Cannonball when he was on the main X-men team he never got a chance so call him out like he is failure make no sense to me. Cannonball and Sunspot actually got development in Avengers which is why they are more popular now. Storm is one of the most popular characters in X-men and in comics and she didn't leave an impression when she was on the Avengers because being in a couple of panels does do anything for a character other than keeping them active in creators and fans minds. Cannonball time didn't really matter because he was never used with importance in a story.

The big point is the thing you describe as chances aren't really chances and you are misrepresenting the actual reality. For example, New X-men roster of Surge, Prodigy, Pixie, X-23, Hellion, Anole, Dust by far is the most successful group of young mutants in awhile and it didn't get a second shot we got stuff like Young X-men, Hope and Lights, and Gen-X with roster nobody really wanted. How you can call Young X-men failures when they never get a "second chance"? The original O5 X-men got canceled imagine if they never put them back in X-men book ever again after the first time wasn't successful. Instead of Marvel tweaking roster, we got roster with Wolfcub, Graymalkin and Ink which failed and everyone knew was going to failed because it didn't use any of the popular characters. Just saying Cannonball wasn't successful or New X-men wasn't successful because they had "a shot" isn't facts.

I will repeat it again X-men is a self-fulling prophecy old characters consistently get a chance to be used in good stories, therefore, fans want to see them. Characters like Emma Frost(Morrison/Bendis run), Armor(Whedon run) Magik(Bendis) can become more popular and psdueo mainstays because of use in big stories and development. It is a reasonable assumption with a good creative team telling good stories and a couple of mainstays around you can advance the popularity of some smaller characters but Moderately popular character. Those smaller characters eventually become mainstay themselves and the cycle continues. It is the reason no singular X-man is important to overall X-men success. You just a need a popular X-man around until newer X-man becomes a popular X-man. To make it simple you just need Cyclops and Jean around until Wolverine and Storm become popular you need Wolverine and Storm around until Gambit, Psylocke, Cable and Rogue become popular and so on. Cannonball, Moonstar, Warpath, Chamber, M can't become X-mainstay without proper story development as MAIN group X-man not all these characters will become mainstays but maybe one or two do. The big failure of X-men over the years is that they keep bringing back Havok, Beast, Colossus, Iceman, Banshee, Forge, Northstar, Dazzler, etc instead of a fresher character who might have more upside and giving these characters more time away so you can actually miss them and embrace them when they come back.

[Technopriest]

Polls are meaningless, especially if you do it in a site like this. Even a sample of 500 people is nothing compared to how many people actually read the books. If you opened the same poll tomorrow most characters would trade positions. Who voted in this poll? Were people even informed outside of a few? What was the actual difference between positions, one or two votes? You can basically get whatever result you want based on the day, the week or the month you do this poll.

[Technopriest]

"A poll is more real and factual information than what you are going on which is strictly opinion but anyways poll was just an example to show after the top 5 or 6 X-men fans are pretty varied on who they like I never said it was the end all."

"Where I simply pointed out someone like Colossus is less popular than X-23 and Emma Frost."

You realize you just contradicted yourself there, if after the top 5 X-men fans are pretty varied in which characters they like, then there is no way that you can make the assumption that Colossus is less popular than Emma or X-23 based off the results of your poll only, it's a sample size result, that's all. I didn't vote in that poll, I am pretty sure that the majority of x-men fans didn't vote in this poll, it really doesn't prove anything beyond the preferences of that sample size.

[Killerbee911]

Polls are meaningless, especially if you do it in a site like this. Even a sample of 500 people is nothing compared to how many people actually read the books. If you opened the same poll tomorrow most characters would trade positions. Who voted in this poll? We're people even informed outside a few? What was the actual difference between positions, one or two votes? You can basically get whatever result you want based on the day, the week or the month.

I don't need it to be 100% without doubt accurate. The poll is used to reinforce a point which some old characters aren't as popular as they once were. Just possibility of that point being true opens up the possibility " Maybe some other character should be used instead of the old favorites because other characters might be better or more popular". Someone goes hey we shouldn't care about these characters because they aren't popular(their opinion) and I go hey slow down in small poll by Jordan White " It show that there is possibility that some newer characters are possible popular than old ones". I have made my point. The person can't say without any doubts that so called smaller characters shouldn't be used.

The burden is now you guys to bring factual information to disprove the poll results. The sample size is noted. It is factual information when however many X-men fans voted on twitter these were the results. Obviously a large sample size might get better results but this all we have for now. I don't need to 100% accuracy I just need reasonable doubt. Sure these could be wrong and when more people voted the numbers would be different BUT result could be generally similar as well and that is all need poll to do put that doubt. You want to find old polls that show characters popularity. Fine. You want to state historic use of characters across media.Fine. Those would give a clearer a picture.

My point(s) was beyond Wolverine, Storm, Jean grey, Cyclops, Kitty and Nightcrawler X-men is more interchangeable that people want to give credit.The secondary point is you only need couple those important X-men not anyone specific (other than Wolverine of course that less true to day with X-23 around). Formula for success is the X-men setting (mutants in a world that hates and fear them with some connection to Xavier) and 1 or 2 X-men people recognize as important X-men(mostly the leaders). Kitty and Nightcrawler leading a group of mutants will do just fine with a good creative team. Anybody however suggest X-men need a certain X-man to sell is wrong. A Emma Frost, Magneto ,Cable, Rogue, X-23 fronted X-men book by Hickman/ Russell Dauterman would do amazing. Because it fulfills the element need characters fans care about and recognize as X-men. Needing specific X-man around to sell is a sort of myth. You need a specific type of X-man around though and those guys are interchangeable as well other than Wolverine. Cyclops,Jean Grey and Wolverine could have stayed dead and X-men franchise would have been fine.

[Technopriest]

The reason why most writers always go back to the same 5, 6, or 10 characters is really not hard to understand. It's simply the characters that they grew up reading, and those are the characters they want to feature, especially for those that their dream assignment is an X-Men title. It becomes really hard for later characters to catch on because the franchise is already established, so outside a satellite title you are going to have a hard time getting those characters featured. I admit freely that my favorite character is Colossus, but I am also a huge fan of the New Mutants. I would love if some of those characters would be featured for a long run in an X-Men title proper (no satellite book), but I know that unless they get a writer that grew up a fan is going to be really hard for that to happen (and even then they would have to convince their editors and higher ups). I mean, which was the las x-related character to hit it big? Gambit? Bishop? And even they experienced a loss of visibility and popularity once new writers came into the fold and wanted to write more of the characters they grew up with. It becomes almost a vicious circle, and it not only affects newer characters. Look at a character like Sunfire, he actually preceded the All New, but because he wasn't made a member of the team, he has only made sporadic appearances since then and no writer has really had any interest in making him a permanent member of the X-Men.

[Technopriest]

I don't need it to be 100% without doubt accurate. The poll is used to reinforce a point which some old characters aren't as popular as they once were. Just possibility of that point being true opens up the possibility " Maybe some other character should be used instead of the old favorites because other characters might be better or more popular". Someone goes hey we shouldn't care about these characters because they aren't popular(their opinion) and I go hey slow down in small poll by Jordan White " It show that there is possibility that some newer characters are possible popular than old ones". I have made my point. The person can't say without any doubts that so called smaller characters shouldn't be used.

The burden is now you guys to bring factual information to disprove the poll results. The sample size is noted. It is factual information when however many X-men fans voted on twitter these were the results. Obviously a large sample size might get better results but this all we have for now. I don't need to 100% accuracy I just need reasonable doubt. Sure these could be wrong and when more people voted the numbers would be different BUT result could be generally similar as well and that is all need poll to do put that doubt. You want to find old polls that show characters popularity. Fine. You want to state historic use of characters across media.Fine. Those would give a clearer a picture.

My point(s) was beyond Wolverine, Storm, Jean grey, Cyclops, Kitty and Nightcrawler X-men is more interchangeable that people want to give credit.The secondary point is you only need couple those important X-men not anyone specific (other than Wolverine of course that less true to day with X-23 around). Formula for success is the X-men setting (mutants in a world that hates and fear them with some connection to Xavier) and 1 or 2 X-men people recognize as important X-men(mostly the leaders). Kitty and Nightcrawler leading a group of mutants will do just fine with a good creative team. Anybody however suggest X-men need a certain X-man to sell is wrong. A Emma Frost, Magneto ,Cable, Rogue, X-23 fronted X-men book by Hickman/ Russell Dauterman would do amazing. Because it fulfills the element need characters fans care about and recognize as X-men. Needing specific X-man around to sell is a sort of myth. You need a specific type of X-man around though and those guys are interchangeable as well other than Wolverine. Cyclops,Jean Grey and Wolverine could have stayed dead and X-men franchise would have been fine.

No, the burden is not on any of us, that is not how polls work. It is a sample size, it doesn't demonstrate actual popularity beyond that sample size. My issue is not whether or not new characters (or not as used ones) shouldn't be used, I actually would like some of them to be incorporated long term. My issue is you making absolute affirmations about characters popularities based on this particular sample, as I said most fans didn't vote on it. Trust me, they make that poll another time most positions will change, so taking that specific poll to decide which characters are more popular or should be featured its pretty much useless.

[Killerbee911]

No, the burden is not on any of us, that is not how polls work. It is a sample size, it doesn't demonstrate actual popularity beyond that sample size. My issue is not whether or not new characters (or not as used ones) shouldn't be used, I actually would like some of them to be incorporated long term. My issue is you making absolute affirmations about characters popularities based on this particular sample, as I said most fans didn't voted on it. Trust me, they make that poll another time most positions will change, so taking that specific poll to decide which characters are more popular or should be featured its pretty much useless.

I didn't make absolute affirmations ,I used a poll show there is possibility that characters are more popular now. I am not trying to prove anything beyond possibility that what people have feeding as factual with no concrete proof could be wrong. Once again I don't need to poll to be 100 percent right, It is just tangible information that we can discuss. We can discuss the possibility projecting out the results them being similar as more people voted or the result being different as more people vote. Poll was not useless present tangible provable information against what people have been saying as fact meaning they could be wrong for saying "Colossus should always be on X-men because he is popular and iconic". Nowhere I am saying without doubt these things to be true I just need a understanding to put out there X-men popularity is not permanent thing it shift and moves and grows which fans never admit.

. I mean, which was the las x-related character to hit it big? Gambit? Bishop? .

Rogue, Psylocke, Bishop, Gambit, Jubilee, Cable, Deadpool, Blink, Domino, Emma Frost, X-23, Quentin Quire,Honey Badger... Those are the obvious ones and more subtle ones are Multiple Man,Warpath, Magik, Sunspot, M, Chamber, Cannonball, Moonstar, Prodigy, Surge are more popular than given credit.

Which is pretty much point they are group of select X-men who more popular than given credit but people always jump to conclusion you are saying to replace Wolverine, Cyclops, Jean grey, Storm etc for Artie, Leech, Eyeboy and Graymalkin. The argument is you need these Big X-men to sell when no xman is proven sales except for Wolverine and books with said big sellers don't significantly better than books without them, I am pretty sure Astonishing X-men and X-men Red sales numbers are that far off from present Uncanny numbers who have two biggest X-men Cyclops and Wolverine. What sells X-men books a great creative team and one or two X-men that most people recognize as" X-men" it doesn't have to specific one it could be Cyclops and Cable,It could Storm and Magneto, It could Jean grey and Emma,It could be Kitty and Rogue,It could be Wolverine and Beast. Then rest of the team could be just about anyone in the X-world.You obviously want to as much popular characters a possible on a book but the gap between mid tier X characters are that far off. See Shatterstar mini sales and Iceman book sales as an example.

Anyways I have gone off topic enough

[Technopriest]

That's the thing though, no poll is going to be 100% correct, by their very nature that would be impossible. I actually agree with your point that ideally we would get fresh faces as the series progresses, I disagree with the notion that a poll done on Twitter at a specific time would be representative of the actual popularity of the characters, since you were the one that was affirming that so and so character was more popular than another based on the results of a poll, which is why is useless to make such claims or to try to figure out which characters could be popular enough to sell the books.
The bigger problem happens because writers and artist want to work on specific characters, and because editors are under the mandate to feature the more iconic ones. This is not unique to the X-line, look at the Avengers or the Justice League, most of the characters featured are the iconic ones. Yes, from time to time newer characters might break through, but how long does that last? So we end up with most newer characters relegated to satellite books or not lasting beyond a couple years.

[Technopriest]

And no, I don't necessarily want to have as many popular x-men in the books, but I understand why it happens. And with Disney getting the movie rights, it might get worse when it comes to getting newer or underused characters into the team's.
And most of the characters you mentioned were not even in the same level of popularity that Gambit, Jubilee and Bishop were. Gambit and Jubilee were part of the team that was in the 90s cartoon, that in many ways defined the series for the next decade, and Bishop had miniseries and was featured heavily. People outside the X-fandom would be hard pressed to know who Honey Badger, Quentin, Blink or Domino (at least before the movie came out) are. What would help is if they get exposure both from within the books and in outside media (X-23 benefited greatly from this, well that and being a wolverine derivative character).

[AHRNIHAL]

Marvel won't bring back dead characters so soon or else deaths would be meaningless look at Scott and Logan.

Matt said 3 women, 3 men.

Women - Blindfold, Loa, Rahne
Men - Guido, Joseph, ?

Jaime????????

[Killerbee911]

People outside the X-fandom would be hard pressed to know who Honey Badger, Quentin, Blink or Domino (at least before the movie came out) are. What would help is if they get exposure both from within the books and in outside media (X-23 benefited greatly from this, well that and being a wolverine derivative character).

And you went in exact reason a poll was relevant,How you to do quantify your claim of these characters aren't popular enough. Everything you said is guess I am just supposed to go along with your "feelings". If we both are guessing which are then I am making an educated guess with a poll which wasn't supposed to be an end all but simply show a trend . And the point over period that X-men haven't been in main limelight of popular culture that certain characters might have loss popularity and they are new characters who are on cusp of big popularity.

As I have been saying my post was never about proving without a shadow of doubt that one character was more popular than another. Just proving that other X-characters are more popular than being give credit and For example Blink has large part of most Exiles books as the main character, She was in X-men cartoons, She was Xmen show the Gifted ,She was in a X-men movie. Quire and Honey Badger have large amount of comic book appearances for characters who haven't been around for that long. Domino has been in X-men cartoon, Deadpool movie and she has solo and mini series. I don't need to prove these characters are as popular X-men characters when X-men was the hottest thing in comics. I just need to prove they are largely popular in their era of comics. And to bring the point home Havok and Banshee are in X-book. Blink who by your popular media metric is more popular than those characters and lot of other X-men characters. The fact you didn't realize that is proof enough of my point.

[Technopriest]

And you went in exact reason a poll was relevant,How you to do quantify your claim of these characters aren't popular enough. Everything you said is guess I am just supposed to go along with your "feelings". If we both are guessing which are then I am making an educated guess with a poll which wasn't supposed to be an end all but simply show a trend . And the point over period that X-men haven't been in main limelight of popular culture that certain characters might have loss popularity and they are new characters who are on cusp of big popularity.

As I have been saying my post was never about proving without a shadow of doubt that one character was more popular than another. Just proving that other X-characters are more popular than being give credit and For example Blink has large part of most Exiles books as the main character, She was in X-men cartoons, She was Xmen show the Gifted ,She was in a X-men movie. Quire and Honey Badger have large amount of comic book appearances for characters who haven't been around for that long. Domino has been in X-men cartoon, Deadpool movie and she has solo and mini series. I don't need to prove these characters are as popular X-men characters when X-men was the hottest thing in comics. I just need to prove they are largely popular in their era of comics. And to bring the point home Havok and Banshee are in X-book. Blink who by your popular media metric is more popular than those characters and lot of other X-men characters. The fact you didn't realize that is proof enough of my point.

You are misunderstanding, it's not that these characters are not "popular enough" to justify putting them in a book, it's that they are not at a level of recognition that other characters are, and that's pretty much a fact, not a feeling. Are you really going to tell me that characters like Honey Badger or Quentin are recognizable to the casual fan? Heck, even Domino before the Deadpool 2 movie came out felt into this category. A casual fan than only has a passing knowledge of who the main X-Men are would be hard press to recognize any of those characters, I can go into even a comic book store and ask which X-men are recognizable to most people there, and I can bet that the majority will know who Colossus or Gambit are, but will probably not recognize the others. Domino was pretty much relegated to the Cable and X-Force titles for MOST of her existence (that only changed recently), Blink was popular within a section of the X-fandom, but not enough to even bring over (I really think if they brought Bishop and Rachel into the main continuity, they could've brought her). If you think those characters are recognizable or more popular than they really are, well, we are just going to agree to disagree. But you still fail to prove your point. If this characters were popular enough to where they could actually move sales they would absolutely be featured in the X-books way more than they are, and we wouldn't emen be having this conversation. By the way, both Banshee and Havok were also featured in X-movies, Havok in 3 of them, which is more appearances that X-23, Domino and Blink have managed, and even he is not really a popular character like the others (I would say his costume is more iconic than the character itself).
You really don't have to go along with my "feelings" about this. Honey Badger, or Quentin, or Armor, or any of the New X-men kids are not really that popular beyond their niche groups. Domino herself wasn't really before the movie, and we don't really know if it'll help her long term (but at least it help put her character out there), same with Blink, who regardless of how much exposures she has had is still a tertiary character within the X-mythos (it really doesn't help that the alternate version is the actual "popular" one, and the one that they based all of her outside media adaptations, and that the 616 version is dry as toast and nobody is really interested in using her).

[Snoop Dogg]

we should kill every x-men character except for wolverine and boom-boom

[Technopriest]

we should kill every x-men character except for wolverine and boom-boom

Hahaha screw Wolvie, let's just have Boom Boom.

[jpmst17]

I don't need it to be 100% without doubt accurate. The poll is used to reinforce a point which some old characters aren't as popular as they once were. Just possibility of that point being true opens up the possibility " Maybe some other character should be used instead of the old favorites because other characters might be better or more popular". Someone goes hey we shouldn't care about these characters because they aren't popular(their opinion) and I go hey slow down in small poll by Jordan White " It show that there is possibility that some newer characters are possible popular than old ones". I have made my point. The person can't say without any doubts that so called smaller characters shouldn't be used.

The burden is now you guys to bring factual information to disprove the poll results. The sample size is noted. It is factual information when however many X-men fans voted on twitter these were the results. Obviously a large sample size might get better results but this all we have for now. I don't need to 100% accuracy I just need reasonable doubt. Sure these could be wrong and when more people voted the numbers would be different BUT result could be generally similar as well and that is all need poll to do put that doubt. You want to find old polls that show characters popularity. Fine. You want to state historic use of characters across media.Fine. Those would give a clearer a picture.

My point(s) was beyond Wolverine, Storm, Jean grey, Cyclops, Kitty and Nightcrawler X-men is more interchangeable that people want to give credit.The secondary point is you only need couple those important X-men not anyone specific (other than Wolverine of course that less true to day with X-23 around). Formula for success is the X-men setting (mutants in a world that hates and fear them with some connection to Xavier) and 1 or 2 X-men people recognize as important X-men(mostly the leaders). Kitty and Nightcrawler leading a group of mutants will do just fine with a good creative team. Anybody however suggest X-men need a certain X-man to sell is wrong. A Emma Frost, Magneto ,Cable, Rogue, X-23 fronted X-men book by Hickman/ Russell Dauterman would do amazing. Because it fulfills the element need characters fans care about and recognize as X-men. Needing specific X-man around to sell is a sort of myth. You need a specific type of X-man around though and those guys are interchangeable as well other than Wolverine. Cyclops,Jean Grey and Wolverine could have stayed dead and X-men franchise would have been fine.

facts actually prove you wrong. wolverine, cyclops and jean were dead and the franchise struggled. look at how bad blue and gold did. in the 30-40's in sales on the charts. now, with cyclops and logan back, it's a top 10 book.