The Didio thing...

[oasis1313]

A few years back, wasn't Didio bragging about being "the most hated man in comics?"

[Ascended]

I don't think this is accurate. I believe DCYou was Jim Lee's idea and Rebirth was most definitely Geoff Johns' idea. They did those initiatives for (what ended up being short term) sales boosts. Small tweaks weren't going to boost sales like a line wide relaunch would. Though, I guess DCYou wasn't totally a line wide relaunch. Just a mass change of direction. And you'll notice that DCYou was a flop out the gate because it wasn't a clear relaunch like New 52 and Rebirth.

I agree with you on all counts here. Though I suspect DCYOU's failings had more to do with the crappy, obviously-short-term-shock-value gimmick directions of the major properties, resulting in a unrecognizable DC.

And also, I try to give Didio credit for the stuff that DC has gotten right too. If blame rolls uphill, then so should praise. DC has done some good stuff during Didio's time, and if we're going to blame him for the sh*t that's gone wrong, whether he was directly involved or just approved hiring a bad editor, then we should also give him credit for when things go right. Otherwise we're just looking for reasons to hate on the guy, and that's just d-baggy behavior on our part. Didio does enough things wrong as it is, he should get some credit for the wins too.

If DiDio's this great business mind, I have to ask...Why do his comics sell so poorly unless there is some special event or anniversary, and why is DC habitually behind Marvel Comics?

No one ever said he was a great business mind. We said he speaks business, not art. The same language the bosses at WB speak. Didio's not a creator invested in building a narrative, he's a businessman looking to generate profit from the IP's (I do think he's fond of the DCU in his own way though). Which is exactly what someone in his position should be. But no one said he was a great business mind. However, I think you're accusation is way off. DC hasn't outsold Marvel on a regular basis since the 60's. That's not a recent failure. And the comics dont sell poorly, by the metrics of this market. DC usually has a number of books in the top 10, top 15, and top 50. Its not unheard of for them to win a month. They're the second biggest publisher, both in comics and larger media, and that position is in no danger. They're not doing any worse, respectively, than anyone else. And no one else has come in and saved comics either. If we damn Didio for not saving the industry we must also condemn Marvel, Image, and everyone else. It's a dying market.

[Dred]

The problem with Didio and credit is he pre-emptively steps forward in support of all the bad stuff and rarely ever pre-emptively supports good stuff. It's why there's so much dissonance in how he is perceived and the overall product.

[byrd156]

more evidence that Miller is just the best

He's so good he wrote Holy Terror.

[Robanker]

The problem with Didio and credit is he pre-emptively steps forward in support of all the bad stuff and rarely ever pre-emptively supports good stuff. It's why there's so much dissonance in how he is perceived and the overall product.

He's trying to tow the company line. He does endorse good product, but it's just that he's one voice in a sea of praise. When everyone is silent in praise of poor projects, of course he's louder. I really dislike the dude's influence on the narrative direction of the line, but he's doing his job in that respect. You don't get to be in charge and be the first to crap on a bad take. He has to be the fall guy. Like or hate what he wants to do with DC, you have to respect his dedication to being a bulwark for criticism and hate.

If you've ever played a healer in a MMO, you've only ever dreamed of a tank like Didio.

[Vampire Savior]

If we damn Didio for not saving the industry we must also condemn Marvel, Image, and everyone else. It's a dying market.

I think that's fair. Somebody has to take the blame for this state of affairs. The situation doesn't just exist magically of its own volition. Some people fashioned it into this and no one ever fixed it. It's ridiculous. With as high a demand for their characters as there is, they can't sell them. I don't know if I've ever seen anything quite like this before.

People love Harry Potter movies, and they loved buying Harry Potter novels.

People love comic book movies, but they don't want to buy comics with their favorite characters.

[Dred]

He's trying to tow the company line. He does endorse good product, but it's just that he's one voice in a sea of praise. When everyone is silent in praise of poor projects, of course he's louder. I really dislike the dude's influence on the narrative direction of the line, but he's doing his job in that respect. You don't get to be in charge and be the first to crap on a bad take. He has to be the fall guy. Like or hate what he wants to do with DC, you have to respect his dedication to being a bulwark for criticism and hate.

If you've ever played a healer in a MMO, you've only ever dreamed of a tank like Didio.

I think you misread my statement and didn't really grasp what I was saying with it. Didio will put a higher level of support on disastrous concepts and ideas than he does on the more well crafted work. You're acting like I'm saying he supports everything evenly, which would be a fairly bland if understandable position, but that is not the case.

[Robanker]

I think you misread my statement and didn't really grasp what I was saying with it. Didio will put a higher level of support on disastrous concepts and ideas than he does on the more well crafted work. You're acting like I'm saying he supports everything evenly, which would be a fairly bland if understandable position, but that is not the case.

No, I understand what you said clearly, but it's more that it seems he supports failures more because the volume of support is reduced. Nobody else is pushing those bombs so it looks like Ol' Dan is white knighting them like a champ. I suppose you could say it is, but the bar is lowered. He can't just publish a book they invested a lot in and let it die.

[Dred]

No, I understand what you said clearly, but it's more that it seems he supports failures more because the volume of support is reduced. Nobody else is pushing those bombs so it looks like Ol' Dan is white knighting them like a champ. I suppose you could say it is, but the bar is lowered. He can't just publish a book they invested a lot in and let it die.

Do you not get that I said pre-emptively? No one knows it's a failure going in.

[Robanker]

Do you not get that I said pre-emptively? No one knows it's a failure going in.

Hence why I said he seems to go into praise even-handed. It's when people step away that we realize he's still waving the flag for a dud. Even if everyone involved sees a book is going to be DOA, his job is to get behind it, more than anybody else's.

I've seen him support lots of projects going on that turned out to be strong. Nobody likes to talk about those because it doesn't fit the narrative that he's DC's boogie man, one that I'm guilty of passing pushing in no small part. I really don't like the dude, but enthusiasm for new projects isn't a sin of his. At least that I've gleaned.

[Comic-Reader Lad]

I think that's fair. Somebody has to take the blame for this state of affairs. The situation doesn't just exist magically of its own volition. Some people fashioned it into this and no one ever fixed it. It's ridiculous. With as high a demand for their characters as there is, they can't sell them. I don't know if I've ever seen anything quite like this before.

People love Harry Potter movies, and they loved buying Harry Potter novels.

People love comic book movies, but they don't want to buy comics with their favorite characters.

There is still a bias against stories told in the comics format. If JK Rowling published Harry Potter as a series of comic books, Harry Potter would be a niche, indie character at most.

Even though the Walking Dead TV series has increased the number of trades and Walking Dead comics sold dramatically, it still doesn't approach what a prose novel sells. So, even AFTER a comics property breaks in the mass media, it still doesn't have a spillover effect to the comics to the degree that it would become a mass market industry.

Most Star Wars fans don't buy Star Wars comics -- or even Star Wars novels. The Harry Potter thing was a successful book franchise FIRST, so going from print to movies seems to work better than the other way around.

In particular, I don't think the general public takes superheroes that seriously that they need a bigger fix beyond what the movies and TV shows give them. I'd wager to guess that Spider-Man's biggest audience for his print adventures would be the readers of his newspaper strip.

[EsotericFailures]

People love Harry Potter movies, and they loved buying Harry Potter novels.

People love comic book movies, but they don't want to buy comics with their favorite characters.

If you loved the first Harry Potter movie, you bought the first Harry Potter book, then read the sequels to get ahead of the movies.

If you loved the first Avengers movie, what do you read? It's source material is over 50 years of Marvel comics. There's never any clear book for you to read if you love a superhero movie unless it's based on a specific story. I bet the sales of the Civil War and Infinity War trades have skyrocketed in the last couple years for instance but that's the exception not the norm.

Plus we're all brought up to think of reading books as a good thing and viewing comic books as something disposable.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think that's fair. Somebody has to take the blame for this state of affairs. The situation doesn't just exist magically of its own volition. Some people fashioned it into this and no one ever fixed it. It's ridiculous. With as high a demand for their characters as there is, they can't sell them. I don't know if I've ever seen anything quite like this before.

People love Harry Potter movies, and they loved buying Harry Potter novels.

People love comic book movies, but they don't want to buy comics with their favorite characters.

There is still a bias against stories told in the comics format. If JK Rowling published Harry Potter as a series of comic books, Harry Potter would be a niche, indie character at most.

Even though the Walking Dead TV series has increased the number of trades and Walking Dead comics sold dramatically, it still doesn't approach what a prose novel sells. So, even AFTER a comics property breaks in the mass media, it still doesn't have a spillover effect to the comics to the degree that it would become a mass market industry.

Most Star Wars fans don't buy Star Wars comics -- or even Star Wars novels. The Harry Potter thing was a successful book franchise FIRST, so going from print to movies seems to work better than the other way around.

In particular, I don't think the general public takes superheroes that seriously that they need a bigger fix beyond what the movies and TV shows give them. I'd wager to guess that Spider-Man's biggest audience for his print adventures would be the readers of his newspaper strip.

If you loved the first Harry Potter movie, you bought the first Harry Potter book, then read the sequels to get ahead of the movies.

If you loved the first Avengers movie, what do you read? It's source material is over 50 years of Marvel comics. There's never any clear book for you to read if you love a superhero movie unless it's based on a specific story. I bet the sales of the Civil War and Infinity War trades have skyrocketed in the last couple years for instance but that's the exception not the norm.

Plus we're all brought up to think of reading books as a good thing and viewing comic books as something disposable.

Books and other media are just more fulfilling to spend your money on. Good luck telling today's kids that, if they want to start buying comics with Aquaman or Spider-Man, they need to drop $3.99 on 22 comic pages they can read in 3 minutes. And then have to wait another two weeks-month to get the next snippet of one story in an ongoing narrative. Trades are better, but even then that's like $15-20 for something that you can breeze through in a half hour at best and then you have to wait like half a year for the next one. They'd rightfully tell you to get lost and just watch the movies or tv shows on their phones.

This is the main thing that's killing the industry now. It needs that next generation of fans, which the characters are quite capable of getting through other means, in order to sustain itself. But kids can't find comics just anywhere, they are not exactly accessible and easy to follow when they DO find them, and the cost of them is not worth the amount of time they bring you enjoyment. Comics have their hooks in us, but these kids are kind of smart to not even bother with it.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I never implied that legacy wasn't an attraction for some fans. It obviously is. But it isn't all that DC's about, and some of us just don't care for it. Doesn't mean it isn't an integral part of DC, but it can still be a integral part while being something we can choose to avoid if we want to, just by reading some titles and not others.

Personally, as someone who doesn't follow Flash and couldn't care less about the Barry v Wally debate, I say if the market supports it let them both have their own solo Flash title. That way some fans have their legacy title, and others can avoid it.

I never said you said that, but you do understand that there's a difference between (a) simply not finding something compelling or something not being for you and (b) wanting to eliminate that aspect altogether from certain franchises, right? I think what people are lamenting is that there has been a rooting out of legacy in the DC Universe for the past several years and that certain legacy characters either have been undervalued or have disappeared.

[Ascended]

I think that's fair. Somebody has to take the blame for this state of affairs.

I think its probably more accurate to say that *everybody* has to take some of the blame for this state of affairs.

The publishers have failed to adapt to the changing market, failed to capitalize on the rise of digital or the rise of the comic book movie. When a movie can make a billion dollars but the biggest selling comic barely scratches 100K (and that's an improvement from a few years ago) someone has failed to properly maximize the market potential.

Retailers have failed to attract new readers as well. How many LCS' run proper advertisements or incentives to bring in new customers? How many LCS' actually come off as a little hostile to new readers?

The Diamond Deal/direct market has likewise failed to expand the audience. A big chunk of the market's failure can likely be traced back to that sharp focus on hobby shops and the decline of spinner racks in grocery stores and large retailers. New people can't buy comics if they never find comics in the stores they frequent.

And us fans? We're also partially to blame. We resist attempts to change the market, both creatively and from the marketing/distribution side of things. While some of us have embraced same-day-digital and other formats, most of us haven't. Fan culture is incredibly insular and is sometimes hostile to new readers.

And all of this is set against the backdrop of all print industries, which have struggled since the rise of the Internet. Some print mediums have started to recover, or at least stabilize, but the glory days are definitely in the past.

Its not just this one publisher or this one industry, it's the whole landscape of print (though again, some parts are recovering). Its us, it's them, its the situation itself. Can't blame one guy for that, nor expect one person to fix it.