The Didio thing...

[Arnoldoaad]

Dude, Convergence is a New 52 story. Superdad, Convergence, Jon, that entire shebang happened before they ever even knew they were doing Rebirth. They did Rebirth after that catastrophic decline during the DCYou era which was kicked off by Convergence. All still the New 52.

You're talking about Earth 2 as a New 52 thing and Convergence was literally primarily driven by Earth 2 characters.

I guess the problem here is that we are seeing "The New 52" as different things
Im not just necesarily talking about this continuity wise but on the core concepts of the books and characters.

New 52, DCYou, Rebirth. to me those are different for DC and with different concepts attached to them. what started with the New 52 its not the same thing that we have now, you cannot simply grab vol 1 of one of the new 52 books and then grab the last one and really see them as the same version on most cases and it is not just because of the change of writers.

Donna is the same. Abnett, for some stupid reason, salvaged the Finch origin. Trust me, I read through the entire painful stupid annual just to be disappointed. Donna is still what Finch made her and only because Finch made her that way. Say what you will.

if you simplify it at that level there is no way to really distinguish any version of the character
just because "donna was created to be kill Diana" is the same concept of both doesnt make it the same origin, the old one was retconned and replaced, I cant remember exactly but I think Donna even says that she doesnt even remember Diana on the annual that reveals her new origin.
This is like saying all of the GL have the exact same origin because "guy got magic ring from space"

And Im not defending either version, both suck and Abnett really wasted golden opportunity here but they are just not the same version

And I agree that Wonder Woman is least like the New 52 of any title that survived the Rebirth transition. But it still has some facets and that leaves every single other comic that is more like the New 52 than Wonder Woman. It's finger prints are everywhere. The entire line is hamstrung by trying to stick round Pre-Flashpoint pegs into the Square New 52 box we're stuck with. It's why Superman Reborn happened. Make the round peg squarer and the the square hole rounder, I guess.

ok, lets look another example
Teen Titans

on this week's Young Justice, Tim Drake gets a revelation that the entirety of the 90s version of Young Justice happen, that He, Bart Allen, Conner Kent, Cassie, Secret and Arrowette form Young Justice and then somehow he forgot all about it, probably because of the multiple-dimension crisis etc.

this strongly implies that Lodbell's version of Teen Titans never existed because both versions are totally incompatible with each other, The Conner Kent on N52TT is not the same one on YJ and the same for Bart and many others.
now the kicker is that Bunker still exist and just appeared on last weeks Red hood, which is written by Lodbell as well and even references New 52 TT

So whats the verdict on this?

Is New52 TT relevant or not?
the book has nothing to do with the Teen Titans book that is going on right now, its even a different team.

[Dred]

DCYou is fundamentally New 52. It carried on stories from the New 52. Same numbering, some of the same writers, same leadership. Rebirth, at least at first, was a relaunch and fundamentally creatively headed by Geoff Johns as all the opening interviews could attest.

Donna's "new" origin is that the Finch origin is correct, only that the Amazons captured her, brainwashed her, then sent her off to have fun with the Teen Titans. It reconciles her having Teen Titans history with her New 52 origin. It's a retcon, I suppose, but it kept the storyline relevant for some stupid reason. They could've just ignored it or completely retconned it instead of incorporating it. It's like a much lower stakes and involvement Superman Reborn situation.

I have not read this week's Young Justice so I can't talk about any of that.

That said, Young Justice is not a New 52 title. It's its own thing, expressly. Teen Titans was a new 52 title (though has gotten 2 makeovers since then), and still has characters like Wallace West and Damian who are influenced by the events of the New 52 pretty significantly. Same with Emiko. Then some new shit tossed in. That's basically Rebirth's current trajectory -- gussied up New 52 pretending to be something different.

[byrd156]

DCYou is fundamentally New 52. It carried on stories from the New 52. Same numbering, some of the same writers, same leadership. Rebirth, at least at first, was a relaunch and fundamentally creatively headed by Geoff Johns as all the opening interviews could attest.

Donna's "new" origin is that the Finch origin is correct, only that the Amazons captured her, brainwashed her, then sent her off to have fun with the Teen Titans. It reconciles her having Teen Titans history with her New 52 origin. It's a retcon, I suppose, but it kept the storyline relevant for some stupid reason. They could've just ignored it or completely retconned it instead of incorporating it. It's like a much lower stakes and involvement Superman Reborn situation.

I have not read this week's Young Justice so I can't talk about any of that.

That said, Young Justice is not a New 52 title. It's its own thing, expressly. Teen Titans was a new 52 title (though has gotten 2 makeovers since then), and still has characters like Wallace West and Damian who are influenced by the events of the New 52 pretty significantly. Same with Emiko. Then some new shit tossed in. That's basically Rebirth's current trajectory -- gussied up New 52 pretending to be something different.

It's the same house. Just a new coat of paint and rearranged some furniture. Like you seriously can't look at the current status of the DCU and not say it's not the same universe as the new 52.

It's all the same crap. Even if everything was somehow different it's still the same people behind the scenes pushing the same old stories.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It's the same house. Just a new coat of paint and rearranged some furniture. Like you seriously can't look at the current status of the DCU and not say it's not the same universe as the new 52.

I'd say the fact that:

- Superman almost completely reverted back to pre-Flashpoint
- Doom Patrol are basically their Pre-FP selves and disregarding the New 52 versions
- King has basically thrown out Zero Year and constantly referencing Year One; and
- Martian Manhunter is now an important member of the League again and may have even had his founder status restored

and one could definitely come to the conclusion that we are no longer in the New 52 continuity.

[byrd156]

I'd say the fact that:

- Superman almost completely reverted back to pre-Flashpoint
- Doom Patrol are basically their Pre-FP selves and disregarding the New 52 versions
- King has basically thrown out Zero Year and constantly referencing Year One; and
- Martian Manhunter is now an important member of the League again and may have even had his founder status restored

and one could definitely come to the conclusion that we are no longer in the New 52 continuity.

There's still way too many differences.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

There's still way too many differences.

Of course but it’s still definitely not the New 52 anymore.

[superduperman]

I really think that he has moved towards continuity and reality spiraling out of control to where no one knows what is canon or not, just to validate a need a full line hard reboot.
I think he wants a DC Universe that's more like the Arkham or Injustice games. Where the whole world is as dark and corrupt as Gotham, heroes aren't trusted and villains are cool role models for sociopaths.

And he could have had that...with an Ultimates style universe. The guy clearly wants his own universe to play in by his rules. He just doesn't seem to get that with a publishing arm, you can make your own without disrupting what's already established. He's made a lot of bad decisions not because the ideas themselves are necessarily bad. I wouldn't mind a DCU that started from scratch for new readers. It's that he doesn't seem to know how to implement them. Fans have been saying that DC needs it's own Ultimates universe for a while now. Didio could have spearheaded that. Instead he decided to turn the mainstream universe into his own personal playground. And then gets mad when not everyone is on board with all of his ideas. Nightwing is a popular character. He'd be insane to outright get rid of him. That's just leaving money on the table. But if he wants a universe where he doesn't exist so badly, make one. Push it as DC's Ultimates line and push the hell out of it.

Everyone, fans included, have to get to a point where they realize that maybe the majority of other fans don't want the same thing they do. Didio is just the one person in a position to do something about it. Instead of trying to get people to hate Nightwing, why not make your own universe without him and see how that goes? Decades ago Earth 2 was a testing ground for ideas that were too controversial to do in the mainstream universe. Like marrying off Superman and Batman. Today, a universe where Superman ISN'T married is considered controversial. But there are clearly fans that want that. So why not make a universe where that's the case instead of trying to turn the mainstream universe into that? DC needs something for casual fans.

[Robotman]

I'd say the fact that:

- Superman almost completely reverted back to pre-Flashpoint
- Doom Patrol are basically their Pre-FP selves and disregarding the New 52 versions
- King has basically thrown out Zero Year and constantly referencing Year One; and
- Martian Manhunter is now an important member of the League again and may have even had his founder status restored

and one could definitely come to the conclusion that we are no longer in the New 52 continuity.

They aren’t totally in pre-Flashpoint continuity either. It’s a mix of both. I think Didio likes the Morrison method of “everything happened”.

[Artemisfanboy]

DCYou is fundamentally New 52. It carried on stories from the New 52. Same numbering, some of the same writers, same leadership. Rebirth, at least at first, was a relaunch and fundamentally creatively headed by Geoff Johns as all the opening interviews could attest.

Donna's "new" origin is that the Finch origin is correct, only that the Amazons captured her, brainwashed her, then sent her off to have fun with the Teen Titans. It reconciles her having Teen Titans history with her New 52 origin. It's a retcon, I suppose, but it kept the storyline relevant for some stupid reason. They could've just ignored it or completely retconned it instead of incorporating it. It's like a much lower stakes and involvement Superman Reborn situation.

I have not read this week's Young Justice so I can't talk about any of that.

That said, Young Justice is not a New 52 title. It's its own thing, expressly. Teen Titans was a new 52 title (though has gotten 2 makeovers since then), and still has characters like Wallace West and Damian who are influenced by the events of the New 52 pretty significantly. Same with Emiko. Then some new shit tossed in. That's basically Rebirth's current trajectory -- gussied up New 52 pretending to be something different.

Donna's "new origin" still doesn't work because it's been established Themyscira's been completely sealed off so it still makes no sense. They still haven't actually fixed Donna's origin yet and now they're brainwashing into villainy. Uhg.

[SiegePerilous02]

Donna's "new origin" still doesn't work because it's been established Themyscira's been completely sealed off so it still makes no sense. They still haven't actually fixed Donna's origin yet and now they're brainwashing into villainy. Uhg.

They would just have to change the means by which Donna gets to the island. Instead of Wonder Woman rescuing her, have it be one of the Gods. They can access Themyscira.

Diana rescuing her doesn't really work with the timeline even before we get to the Rebirth Themyscira. Diana rescues 3 year old Donna during her first year, that puts Donna as younger than everyone else in her generation and makes the JL generation way older than DC wants them, since Donna should be in her early 20s by now

[Artemisfanboy]

They would just have to change the means by which Donna gets to the island. Instead of Wonder Woman rescuing her, have it be one of the Gods. They can access Themyscira.

Diana rescuing her doesn't really work with the timeline even before we get to the Rebirth Themyscira. Diana rescues 3 year old Donna during her first year, that puts Donna as younger than everyone else in her generation and makes the JL generation way older than DC wants them, since Donna should be in her early 20s by now

Really there are so many unexplained things about Donna's rebirth origin that it makes my head hurt. It had to be at least five years ago for her to be a member of the titans but the finch run was in the present, thenm theres the the fact they established the New 52 themyscira and everything around it was a holodeck and nothing else from it has survived. And there's still the problem that Diana hates Donna and considers an evil clone. And on top of this they bait and switched us by making it look like they ditching all the finch stuff to begin at first. I really liked what it looked like liked they were doing with a seven year old Donna ending up on themyscira somehow(shipwreck, gods whatever) and being adopted. I know Diana can't be the one to rescue Donna and bring her back to Themyscira herself, but Donna should be Diana's younger sister not her evil clone.

[Ascended]

I mean we know he hates Nightwing because he said he does and there is concrete proof that his ideal universe has no Nightwing, only Robin.

Which would be fine, if it didn't appear that he's letting that personal opinion sway what he approves of and who he hires to handle Nightwing.

[skyvolt2000]

I really think that he has moved towards continuity and reality spiraling out of control to where no one knows what is canon or not, just to validate a need a full line hard reboot.
I think he wants a DC Universe that's more like the Arkham or Injustice games. Where the whole world is as dark and corrupt as Gotham, heroes aren't trusted and villains are cool role models for sociopaths.

You understand the can of WORMS you get if you went that route.

You give Dan FULL POWER to get rid of everyone he does not LIKE and you know who that group is.

You give Dan FULL POWER to rewrite history the way he wants it.

If you go back to DAY ONE for everybody. EVERYBODY has to be introduced with an origin.

Dick Grayson is back as Robin. Jason, Tim & Damian no longer exist.

Wally West is back as Kid Flash-Bart & Wallace no longer exist.

Hal Jordan is just NOW becoming a Green Lantern-Jessica, Simon, John, Guy & Kyle no longer exist.

There is no Cyborg, Jaime Reyes, Starfire, Duke, Cassandra Cain, Sideways, Firestorm, Deathstroke, Raven, Beast Boy and Batwoman.

Except for Vixen & Black Lightning-the majority of your POC population are teens or legacies.

In fact where does that leave someone like Supergirl? Harley?

What about the OUtsiders?

How long are all those fans suppose to wait? 6 months? 1 year? 10 years?

You better get ready for bigger and badder and NASTIER fan wars. When you rewrite stuff.

[Frontier]

And he could have had that...with an Ultimates style universe. The guy clearly wants his own universe to play in by his rules. He just doesn't seem to get that with a publishing arm, you can make your own without disrupting what's already established. He's made a lot of bad decisions not because the ideas themselves are necessarily bad. I wouldn't mind a DCU that started from scratch for new readers. It's that he doesn't seem to know how to implement them. Fans have been saying that DC needs it's own Ultimates universe for a while now. Didio could have spearheaded that. Instead he decided to turn the mainstream universe into his own personal playground. And then gets mad when not everyone is on board with all of his ideas. Nightwing is a popular character. He'd be insane to outright get rid of him. That's just leaving money on the table. But if he wants a universe where he doesn't exist so badly, make one. Push it as DC's Ultimates line and push the hell out of it.

Everyone, fans included, have to get to a point where they realize that maybe the majority of other fans don't want the same thing they do. Didio is just the one person in a position to do something about it. Instead of trying to get people to hate Nightwing, why not make your own universe without him and see how that goes? Decades ago Earth 2 was a testing ground for ideas that were too controversial to do in the mainstream universe. Like marrying off Superman and Batman. Today, a universe where Superman ISN'T married is considered controversial. But there are clearly fans that want that. So why not make a universe where that's the case instead of trying to turn the mainstream universe into that? DC needs something for casual fans.

Didio spearheading an Ultimate imprint would be interesting if only to see how his creator tendencies would impact it and whether it could avoid the pitfalls of the original Ultimate universe.

[byrd156]

Of course but it’s still definitely not the New 52 anymore.

I would say it's still more New 52 than anything else. It's still the same people in charge doing similar things to what they were doing during the New 52.