The Didio thing...

[superduperman]

Didio spearheading an Ultimate imprint would be interesting if only to see how his creator tendencies would impact it and whether it could avoid the pitfalls of the original Ultimate universe.

I think an Ultimates type universe works best when one person is spearheading it. One singular vision. And it either fails or succeeds on it's own merits and how well people like your ideas.

[oasis1313]

You understand the can of WORMS you get if you went that route.

You give Dan FULL POWER to get rid of everyone he does not LIKE and you know who that group is.

You give Dan FULL POWER to rewrite history the way he wants it.

If you go back to DAY ONE for everybody. EVERYBODY has to be introduced with an origin.

Dick Grayson is back as Robin. Jason, Tim & Damian no longer exist.

Wally West is back as Kid Flash-Bart & Wallace no longer exist.

Hal Jordan is just NOW becoming a Green Lantern-Jessica, Simon, John, Guy & Kyle no longer exist.

There is no Cyborg, Jaime Reyes, Starfire, Duke, Cassandra Cain, Sideways, Firestorm, Deathstroke, Raven, Beast Boy and Batwoman.

Except for Vixen & Black Lightning-the majority of your POC population are teens or legacies.

In fact where does that leave someone like Supergirl? Harley?

What about the OUtsiders?

How long are all those fans suppose to wait? 6 months? 1 year? 10 years?

You better get ready for bigger and badder and NASTIER fan wars. When you rewrite stuff.

I would disagree in that only Tim would exist, because Didio likes/loves the character. Dick/Jason/Damian wouldn't exist. But otherwise, a hard reboot might not be a bad idea.

[scary harpy]

You understand the can of WORMS you get if you went that route.

You give Dan FULL POWER to get rid of everyone he does not LIKE and you know who that group is.

You give Dan FULL POWER to rewrite history the way he wants it.

If you go back to DAY ONE for everybody. EVERYBODY has to be introduced with an origin.

Dick Grayson is back as Robin. Jason, Tim & Damian no longer exist.

Wally West is back as Kid Flash-Bart & Wallace no longer exist.

Hal Jordan is just NOW becoming a Green Lantern-Jessica, Simon, John, Guy & Kyle no longer exist.

There is no Cyborg, Jaime Reyes, Starfire, Duke, Cassandra Cain, Sideways, Firestorm, Deathstroke, Raven, Beast Boy and Batwoman.

Except for Vixen & Black Lightning-the majority of your POC population are teens or legacies.

In fact where does that leave someone like Supergirl? Harley?

What about the OUtsiders?

How long are all those fans suppose to wait? 6 months? 1 year? 10 years?

You better get ready for bigger and badder and NASTIER fan wars. When you rewrite stuff.

It's a can of worms labelled Inevitable.

Don't get me wrong: I adore many of the characters you mentioned. But...are the wanted or are they needed?

Some will return...some won't. It's sad.

DC must have at least a 100,000 characters...and not enough stories for all of them.

[Arnoldoaad]

DCYou is fundamentally New 52. It carried on stories from the New 52. Same numbering, some of the same writers, same leadership. Rebirth, at least at first, was a relaunch and fundamentally creatively headed by Geoff Johns as all the opening interviews could attest.

once again, to me that is not the New 52 in spirit
just because it has the same numbering/writing/etc its not necesarily the same era in DC

If anything, DCYou and Rebirth are more of a transition period to what we curretly have but we are not on the same place we were before.
Now, there are exceptions, like you can pretty much read Batman from Morrison's run to the date and it works as its own story.

Donna's "new" origin is that the Finch origin is correct, only that the Amazons captured her, brainwashed her, then sent her off to have fun with the Teen Titans. It reconciles her having Teen Titans history with her New 52 origin. It's a retcon, I suppose, but it kept the storyline relevant for some stupid reason. They could've just ignored it or completely retconned it instead of incorporating it. It's like a much lower stakes and involvement Superman Reborn situation.

It is 100% a retcon

I have not read this week's Young Justice so I can't talk about any of that.

sorry for the spoiler then, you should read it, its pretty good,

That said, Young Justice is not a New 52 title. It's its own thing, expressly. Teen Titans was a new 52 title (though has gotten 2 makeovers since then), and still has characters like Wallace West and Damian who are influenced by the events of the New 52 pretty significantly. Same with Emiko. Then some new **** tossed in. That's basically Rebirth's current trajectory -- gussied up New 52 pretending to be something different.

Young Justice is not a New 52 title but Teen Titans was and the characters on the original TT are not the same as they are now

Tim Drake in N52TT is not the same Tim Drake on YJ
the same for Superboy, Bart and Wondergirl.
YJ is now build on a pile of retcons, not necesarily a bad thing.

It's the same house. Just a new coat of paint and rearranged some furniture. Like you seriously can't look at the current status of the DCU and not say it's not the same universe as the new 52.

that really depends of where you are looking at
I honestly couldnt say that the superman from the new 52 is the same guy from Bendis books
or Azzarello's WW is the same as the current one
just to name a few

I'd say the fact that:

- Superman almost completely reverted back to pre-Flashpoint
- Doom Patrol are basically their Pre-FP selves and disregarding the New 52 versions
- King has basically thrown out Zero Year and constantly referencing Year One; and
- Martian Manhunter is now an important member of the League again and may have even had his founder status restored

and one could definitely come to the conclusion that we are no longer in the New 52 continuity.

This! pretty much.
and there are many more examples than that.

I would say it's still more New 52 than anything else. It's still the same people in charge doing similar things to what they were doing during the New 52.

But then question is:
What exactly is the new 52?

what qualifies an story as a new 52 story?
for example the Court of Owls and pretty much most of Snyder's run on Batman, that story didnt needed nor benefited at all by the reboot of the new 52 and most of the story was

[byrd156]

You understand the can of WORMS you get if you went that route.

You give Dan FULL POWER to get rid of everyone he does not LIKE and you know who that group is.

You give Dan FULL POWER to rewrite history the way he wants it.

If you go back to DAY ONE for everybody. EVERYBODY has to be introduced with an origin.

Dick Grayson is back as Robin. Jason, Tim & Damian no longer exist.

Wally West is back as Kid Flash-Bart & Wallace no longer exist.

Hal Jordan is just NOW becoming a Green Lantern-Jessica, Simon, John, Guy & Kyle no longer exist.

There is no Cyborg, Jaime Reyes, Starfire, Duke, Cassandra Cain, Sideways, Firestorm, Deathstroke, Raven, Beast Boy and Batwoman.

Except for Vixen & Black Lightning-the majority of your POC population are teens or legacies.

In fact where does that leave someone like Supergirl? Harley?

What about the OUtsiders?

How long are all those fans suppose to wait? 6 months? 1 year? 10 years?

You better get ready for bigger and badder and NASTIER fan wars. When you rewrite stuff.

I'd rather have a hard reboot than what we got with the New 52.

[byrd156]

that really depends of where you are looking at
I honestly couldnt say that the superman from the new 52 is the same guy from Bendis books
or Azzarello's WW is the same as the current one
just to name a few

But then question is:
What exactly is the new 52?

what qualifies an story as a new 52 story?
for example the Court of Owls and pretty much most of Snyder's run on Batman, that story didnt needed nor benefited at all by the reboot of the new 52 and most of the story was

A New 52 story is something that couldn't have happened Pre-flashpoint and continues on story threads/character relationships/redesigns/etc. from the New 52. It's still the same universe.

If I press my face real hard against Superman's ongoing story I can pretend it's a continuation of the Pre-Flashpoint character and it is in a way. Just a continuation of that version in the New 52 universe. The character may be the same but the world is not at all.

[Dred]

I'd say the fact that:

- Superman almost completely reverted back to pre-Flashpoint
- Doom Patrol are basically their Pre-FP selves and disregarding the New 52 versions
- King has basically thrown out Zero Year and constantly referencing Year One; and
- Martian Manhunter is now an important member of the League again and may have even had his founder status restored

and one could definitely come to the conclusion that we are no longer in the New 52 continuity.

How can you possibly say Superman is reverted to PreFP version when the primary focus of his current status quo is a character who did not exist until the New 52 in Jon? And complete retcons to his Kryptonian history?

He is a mish mash of Pre-FP and New 52. That's what Reborn was about. It's not just plain Pre-FP Superman. If it was they wouldn't have done Superman Reborn, because they ALREADY had Pre-FP Supes.

J'onn was alluded to as a major part of the league in the New 52, though it was never shown in any serious way. That said, Cyborg is still a JL member which is obviously entirely a New 52 derived thing. The point is not that some stuff has changed from New 52, obviously some things have. The dude we're arguing against is saying that The New 52 has been completely wiped away which is laughable.

[king81992]

You understand the can of WORMS you get if you went that route.

You give Dan FULL POWER to get rid of everyone he does not LIKE and you know who that group is.

You give Dan FULL POWER to rewrite history the way he wants it.

If you go back to DAY ONE for everybody. EVERYBODY has to be introduced with an origin.

Dick Grayson is back as Robin. Jason, Tim & Damian no longer exist.

Wally West is back as Kid Flash-Bart & Wallace no longer exist.

Hal Jordan is just NOW becoming a Green Lantern-Jessica, Simon, John, Guy & Kyle no longer exist.

There is no Cyborg, Jaime Reyes, Starfire, Duke, Cassandra Cain, Sideways, Firestorm, Deathstroke, Raven, Beast Boy and Batwoman.

Except for Vixen & Black Lightning-the majority of your POC population are teens or legacies.

In fact where does that leave someone like Supergirl? Harley?

What about the OUtsiders?

How long are all those fans suppose to wait? 6 months? 1 year? 10 years?

You better get ready for bigger and badder and NASTIER fan wars. When you rewrite stuff.

A reboot only works if you tell new stories with the characters instead of rehashing old ones and properly execute your ideas. New 52 told new stories and had interesting concepts but the execution was bad all around. Rebirth wasn't a 'reboot'(it should have been)and a lot of the concepts that were used here felt like retreading old ground.The current direction of DC seems to be terrible ideas that are being executed poorly. A lot of these terrible decisions need/or will be retconned eventually leading to more confusion about canon.

Eventually, DC is going to have to decide between rebooting or doing away with continuity and canon. By doing away with 'continuity and canon' I mean that every book is self contained and has its own interpretation of the DC universe. When another writer takes over a title, their run is a new interpretation of that series.

[Arnoldoaad]

A New 52 story is something that couldn't have happened Pre-flashpoint and continues on story threads/character relationships/redesigns/etc. from the New 52. It's still the same universe.

I actualy like this description a lot, its pretty much what im thinking.

If I press my face real hard against Superman's ongoing story I can pretend it's a continuation of the Pre-Flashpoint character and it is in a way. Just a continuation of that version in the New 52 universe. The character may be the same but the world is not at all.

however using that same concept
wouldnt a post-New 52 story be something that couldn't have happened Pre-Rebirth(considering the last crisis technically) and doesnt continues with story threads/character relationships/redesigns/etc. from the New 52.

So wouldnt

I guess the difference might be that the New 52 brought such a hard cut for some stories/concepts while the phasing of it happen periodically.

for example: I could honestly say that pretty much every comic of superman from COIE until Flashpoint is the same guy.
But I dont think that the character is the same on every single comic from New 52 to Bendis. Its not just the world that shift.

[Arnoldoaad]

How can you possibly say Superman is reverted to PreFP version when the primary focus of his current status quo is a character who did not exist until the New 52 in Jon? And complete retcons to his Kryptonian history?

He is a mish mash of Pre-FP and New 52. That's what Reborn was about. It's not just plain Pre-FP Superman. If it was they wouldn't have done Superman Reborn, because they ALREADY had Pre-FP Supes.

Jon was created as the son of the pre-flashpoint superman, you cant say that its a New 52 concept just because it kinda happen during that period.

J'onn was alluded to as a major part of the league in the New 52, though it was never shown in any serious way. That said, Cyborg is still a JL member which is obviously entirely a New 52 derived thing. The point is not that some stuff has changed from New 52, obviously some things have. The dude we're arguing against is saying that The New 52 has been completely wiped away which is laughable.

I didnt say that it was wiped out
I said that it isnt relevant and by that I mean the central concepts of it.
yes there are some pieces here and there that are kept tht came around during this time but for the most part they arent necesary reading.

You dont need to read Superman's new origin by Morrison much less a single story about the NEW52 superman prior to the merge to understand Bendis version.
you dont need to read Finch's WW to get Donna now or Azzarello's WW to get Diana or Lodbell's TT to get Tim Drake.

thats what I mean by it being irrelevant.

It is something different now.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

How can you possibly say Superman is reverted to PreFP version when the primary focus of his current status quo is a character who did not exist until the New 52 in Jon? And complete retcons to his Kryptonian history?

Well, for one, I said "almost" and, second, as it stands now, Superman continuity is at least about 90% Pre-Flashpoint with smatterings of New 52. Jon didn't exist until after the New 52, but he's not a New 52 character. He was created as the son of the Pre-Flashpoint Lois and Clark who were essentially "refugees" from the Pre-FP era.

As it stands now, Superman's origin has reverted back to Secret Origin; the Death and Return arc supposedly happened the same way it did as originally told; his relationship with Lois unfolded in the same way as it originally did; Lex Luthor was the U.S. President; etc. Jon's birth was retroactively inserted into the timeline, yes, but the current Superman books largely read as if they were a continuation of Pre-FP Lois and Clark, but with a son now. The same result would have been achieved if they'd had Lois give birth before Flashpoint and pulled a Jai and Irey West on them.

J'onn was alluded to as a major part of the league in the New 52, though it was never shown in any serious way. That said, Cyborg is still a JL member which is obviously entirely a New 52 derived thing. The point is not that some stuff has changed from New 52, obviously some things have. The dude we're arguing against is saying that The New 52 has been completely wiped away which is laughable.

The New 52 clearly showed that J'onn was only a member of the League for a short time and left things on bad terms with the other members of the original 7.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I would say it's still more New 52 than anything else. It's still the same people in charge doing similar things to what they were doing during the New 52.

I'd say that the current universe is about 30-40% New 52, and I think even that's an overgenerous characterization. I mean, beside Shazam, Aquaman, and the Flash, are any other titles actively relying on New 52 continuity?

[Dred]

Jon was created as the son of the pre-flashpoint superman, you cant say that its a New 52 concept just because it kinda happen during that period.



I didnt say that it was wiped out
I said that it isnt relevant and by that I mean the central concepts of it.
yes there are some pieces here and there that are kept tht came around during this time but for the most part they arent necesary reading.

You dont need to read Superman's new origin by Morrison much less a single story about the NEW52 superman prior to the merge to understand Bendis version.
you dont need to read Finch's WW to get Donna now or Azzarello's WW to get Diana or Lodbell's TT to get Tim Drake.

thats what I mean by it being irrelevant.

It is something different now.

That is exactly what I can say because Pre-Flashpoint Superman already had a son who was erased from history, Chris Kent, so they could create Jon in the New 52. Derivative of Pre-Flashpoint, admittedly, but he's an entirely New 52 character. And yes, you can say that it's a New 52 thing because it was created in the New 52. If you can show me a Jon Kent comic before the New 52 I'll zip my lips. Lemire's Animal Man is still a New 52 run. The part of Johns' and Snyder's GL and Batman runs, respectively, that happened in the New 52 are still New 52 comics.

The ostensible point of sticking to these "iconic" characters is you largely don't have to read what came before to pick up on the latest storyline. You could say that for many stories for Pre-FP Superman, New 52 Superman, even new, messy as hell continuity Reborn/Rebirth Superman. Everyone can just tell stories with Last Son of Krypton because he's got a fairly simple and well known premise. The only unusual thing that is required to know about that is relevant today that wasn't true back in the 60s is Jon Kent. Again, a New 52 character.

Saying you "need" to read something means the writers are doing a bad job. You didn't need to read H'el on Earth to follow the next New 52 Superman story, either. What you're talking about is generally how comics are supposed to function anyhow.

Well, for one, I said "almost" and, second, as it stands now, Superman continuity is at least about 90% Pre-Flashpoint with smatterings of New 52. Jon didn't exist until after the New 52, but he's not a New 52 character. He was created as the son of the Pre-Flashpoint Lois and Clark who were essentially "refugees" from the Pre-FP era.

As it stands now, Superman's origin has reverted back to Secret Origin; the Death and Return arc supposedly happened the same way it did as originally told; his relationship with Lois unfolded in the same way as it originally did; Lex Luthor was the U.S. President; etc. Jon's birth was retroactively inserted into the timeline, yes, but the current Superman books largely read as if they were a continuation of Pre-FP Lois and Clark, but with a son now. The same result would have been achieved if they'd had Lois give birth before Flashpoint and pulled a Jai and Irey West on them.

The New 52 clearly showed that J'onn was only a member of the League for a short time and left things on bad terms with the other members of the original 7.

Jon is entirely a New 52 concept. You can't really escape that. If you want to know about Jon, you go read a New 52 comic book by Dan Jurgens. Simple as that. If you want to know about Superman right now, you have to read a smattering of New 52 and Pre-FP in a big ol mess. It's not exactly the same for some very, very obvious reasons. Most notably their erased from history son who no one likes to talk about because it'd make Jon look kind of bad.

J'onn has left the league on bad terms before in Pre-FP stories, too. Heck, Pre-Crisis stories, even. This isn't some unusual thing.

Frankly, if team composition is what you're really beating the hammer on, Snyder's JL is more referencing the DCAU in concept far more than it is Pre-FP. What with Hawkgirl and Stewart suddenly joining the team. Not really a Pre-FP thing. The only missing piece is Wally (for obvious, hateful reasons).


I know Superman derives part of its current status quo from pre-flashpoint times, but certainly not all of it, and certainly not entirely of it. Lots of New 52 stories did the same thing anyhow. GL and Batman most famously, but they still had a bunch of stupid **** that made them The New 52. Lesser known examples are Animal Man and Swamp Thing. Using parts of pre-FP history is pretty abundant in every New 52 regardless.

I'm just kind of over it with people acting like oh boo hoo the New 52 is gone and it's all Pre-Flashpoint stuff when they're using the fact that that is not the case to run my favorite character into the ground and ruin him. So no, it's not really Pre-FP. Trust me.

[Arnoldoaad]

That is exactly what I can say because Pre-Flashpoint Superman already had a son who was erased from history, Chris Kent, so they could create Jon in the New 52. Derivative of Pre-Flashpoint, admittedly, but he's an entirely New 52 character. And yes, you can say that it's a New 52 thing because it was created in the New 52. If you can show me a Jon Kent comic before the New 52 I'll zip my lips. Lemire's Animal Man is still a New 52 run. The part of Johns' and Snyder's GL and Batman runs, respectively, that happened in the New 52 are still New 52 comics.

The ostensible point of sticking to these "iconic" characters is you largely don't have to read what came before to pick up on the latest storyline. You could say that for many stories for Pre-FP Superman, New 52 Superman, even new, messy as hell continuity Reborn/Rebirth Superman. Everyone can just tell stories with Last Son of Krypton because he's got a fairly simple and well known premise. The only unusual thing that is required to know about that is relevant today that wasn't true back in the 60s is Jon Kent. Again, a New 52 character.

so, what is exactly the arbitrary line you are pointing at here?

is it just the date?

According do wiki officially the New 52 goes from August 31, 2011 – May 25, 2016
Jon first appeared on July 2015 on Convergence Superman#2 and that as a baby
his first introduction as a kid was with Rebirth which was on August 2016
so it counts if you look it from the perspective that he was born in the new 52 but is it really a concept of the New 52 just because that happen during that period?

Saying you "need" to read something means the writers are doing a bad job. You didn't need to read H'el on Earth to follow the next New 52 Superman story, either. What you're talking about is generally how comics are supposed to function anyhow.

OMG I completely forgot about H'el
Is that even cannon still?

But I understand your point and I agree however thats not what im reffering to.
you dont need to read Batman and Son to get Damian on other comics they stand on its own

but think it like this
if you were to retell the story of "modern" Batman from the top to the present then you would start with Batman & Son and maybe the rest of Morrison's run, then move to Snyder's run, then to Tom King and in addition to those there would be other stories that would still be part of that character's cannon like Tomasi's B&R among others.
I know its kind of an unfair comparison because really batman has pretty clean continuity to other books but those other books do still have some form of continuity

if you have to retell Wonder Woman though, you would have to start with the second run of Rucka, not Azzarello because there is no need to dig on "The Lie" that is being completely retcon by WW:Year One

similarly if you need to start telling the story of Jon you dont need to start with Convergence, you wouldnt start with Bendis either but you wouldnt need to start with the new 52 at all.

What Jon is right now(pre-bendis) has nothing to do with the New 52

We need to nail it down right now
The new 52 for superman was about a young Clark Kent that never got married with Lois Lane, eventually dates Wonder Woman and then dies.
none of that happen anymore

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

I'm just a little confused that there are people who seem to care about Chris Kent, whom I've always been under the impression went over like a lead balloon, like Cir-El and Harper Row and "Aquaman, Sword of Atlantis."

Can anybody confirm something I once came across a few years ago, namely, that when Dan Didio was first promoted to editor-in-chief/executive editor, that he allegedly took a look at the whole line of comics DC was publishing at the time and declared them to be crap? Or was that just somebody's speculation/snark?