The Didio thing...

[Lee Stone]

It's obvious that Didio wants a hard reboot of the DCU. Everything he does seems to hint in that direction. Which he very nearly got with New 52 and probably would have taken further had he had sole control over the line. He's good at trying to reach new readers and finding ways to expand the line beyond the mainstream universe. That having been said, New 52 was a missed opportunity for DC to have it's own Ultimates line. I think his role should probably be head of new outreach projects. Keep him away from the main line. If he truly hates "legacy" characters that much, an Ultimates style line is a good way to get that. He should have made New 52 DC's Ultimates line and promoted the hell out of that instead. Things like the Wal-Mart books and Earth One are good decisions. I don't know how many of them were his, necessarily, but I don't think non-canon lines for casual readers are a bad idea. Black Label, for instance. Or the series of OGNs for younger readers. It's not that Didio's ideas are necessarily bad, it's that he's trying to force a square peg into a round hole. There are ways to implement them. And I do think we need to reach out beyond the hardcore fans, but he doesn't seem to know how to implement them without stepping on everyone else's toes.

I really think that he has moved towards continuity and reality spiraling out of control to where no one knows what is canon or not, just to validate a need a full line hard reboot.
I think he wants a DC Universe that's more like the Arkham or Injustice games. Where the whole world is as dark and corrupt as Gotham, heroes aren't trusted and villains are cool role models for sociopaths.

[Ascended]

I think the issue is what are the GOALS of his superiors. What are they comfortable with that allow him to stay where he is.

If all you care about is how well Batman and certain friends are doing in terms of sales, orders or whatever.
If all you are happy with is looking at comicchron and seeing Batman & his friends books constantly in the top 10-20 of orders to stores.
If you are happy looking at say Amazon Graphic novels or novels and see The Trinity (along with Hal & Barry) is the top 100.

And that's most likely what WB expect and want.

I'm obviously just guessing here, but I'd assume that WB considers the publishing arm of DC essentially worthless. It's a dying industry who's products struggle to move 100K units a month. Given the costs behind production, comics are virtually a break-even industry by corporate standards. Why the f**k would WB, a multi-billion dollar corporation, care about comic books or their sales? I mean, it takes an average of what, three-four months to create a single issue? If Batman sells 100K at 3.99, it makes less than $400,000, and then that money has to be split with retailers, distributors, creators, administrators, taxes, janitors, the bills have to be paid, etc. Tons of overhead. And most books are lucky to break 50K in units sold (before returns). It's not a money-making industry, and hasn't been in decades.

WB (I assume) does not care about your favorite character (not you you, just a generic you), diversity in comics, or what's good for an industry the country gave up for dead fifty years ago and never took seriously in the first place. WB juggles multiple projects a year across a wide spectrum of genres and formats, most of which cost millions to produce and handle. Comics aren't even *on* the priority list.

What WB does care about are the intellectual properties they can spin into larger media adaptations, over and over again, which *are* profitable (and not handled by the publishing side). But WB can put Vixen in the Arrowverse and give Black Lightning a tv show and make a BoP movie without those characters being used in the comics. And of course, there are IP's that have been seeing larger media adaptations since before most of us were born, which WB knows are viable and have audience appeal and are "safe" investments for million-dollar projects.

And yes, we're in a new age of superhero popularity and WB has certainly failed to capitalize on that with the finesse and skill they should have. I'm not saying they've done things right and I've been as critical of WB and DC and Didio as almost anyone here (especially when it comes to Nightwing and Wally and the whole NTT gen). They've clearly dropped the ball a lot. But those are other people, other companies, not comic creators or administrators. As long as the publishing side of DC doesn't lose ground in the market and remains stable at #2, where they've been since the 60's, and doesn't upset the accountants by losing money, and doesn't get involved in an embarrassing scandal, WB isn't going to care. So as far as WB is concerned, yeah, for the most part Didio's done his job.

Disney likely doesn't care about the publishing either. For these corporations, the comics are just cheap storyboards. You don't care about the storyboard, you care about the movie you make from it.

[Arnoldoaad]

I feel I came to late on this discussion but here are my 2 cents

Didio is good for DC

Every single time that this kind of argument breaks out I always see people focusing on very specific issues and even some of them that are ancient at this point

yeah some people dont like Identity Crisis and just for that he should had been gone.
for others IC was their first comic
It was one of mines
and it also came out 15 years ago(YES IT WAS 2004! YOU ARE OLD!)
and it also made a ton of money at the time which for the company is a very good thing.

more recently we had the new 52 which had its ups and downs, mostly downs in my opinion, but that isnt relevant anymore on the comics that you might read every week now

The bottom line for me is that it is very odd that for every bad decision that he made people mostly dislike him for some few books and completely ignore the fact that every single other book that was also good is also thanks to him
Yes, it is because of him that we had Cry for Justice
but it is also because of him that we had Grant Morrison's Batman

[Dred]

The New 52 is incredibly relevant on the comics we read right now. Every single story is beholden to its events and changes to things except, like, Wonder Woman.

Also, giving Didio credit for Grant Morrison's work might be the most disingenuous thing I've ever heard of. Grant has expressed his interests multiple times and Didio just allowing Morrison to write something is not same masterstroke of editorial input. Editor's are responsible for line wide affecting decisions, not nitpicks for what individual comic is good or bad (that falls on group editors and writers). Large, sweeping status quo changes and enforcement, as well as events and consumer awareness of comics are his purview and he's the guy who's had to relaunch twice and we're heading for a third. He's not responsible for a particular book being bad or good unless he's writing it or he's credited specifically for its direction. Didio probably doesn't even read half the books they put out. If he did you wouldn't get shit like Gnark dying in Heroes in Crisis and showing up in Titans at Roy's grave, for instance.

[Dred]

Edit: woops double post

[Pinsir]

Honestly a lot of the posts are reminiscent of how people discuss Kathleen Kennedy..."Dan Dido hates Nightwing!" Yet the character has had a solo title going on for nearly the entirety of his rule...

[Dred]

I mean we know he hates Nightwing because he said he does and there is concrete proof that his ideal universe has no Nightwing, only Robin.

[Arnoldoaad]

The New 52 is incredibly relevant on the comics we read right now. Every single story is beholden to its events and changes to things except, like, Wonder Woman.

I completely disagree, I think most stuff that the New 52 brought to the table were gone after 2 years
on the other hand stuff that didnt needed the New 52 stuck around, the best examples are John's GL and Snyder's Batman, those comics would had happen with or without the New 52.

Also, giving Didio credit for Grant Morrison's work might be the most disingenuous thing I've ever heard of. Grant has expressed his interests multiple times and Didio just allowing Morrison to write something is not same masterstroke of editorial input. Editor's are responsible for line wide affecting decisions, not nitpicks for what individual comic is good or bad (that falls on group editors and writers). Large, sweeping status quo changes and enforcement, as well as events and consumer awareness of comics are his purview and he's the guy who's had to relaunch twice and we're heading for a third. He's not responsible for a particular book being bad or good unless he's writing it or he's credited specifically for its direction. Didio probably doesn't even read half the books they put out. If he did you wouldn't get shit like Gnark dying in Heroes in Crisis and showing up in Titans at Roy's grave, for instance.

But why doesnt he get credit for GM Batman but he gets the blame for Identity Crisis?
Why doesnt he get credit for Agent 37 but does get blame for Ric Grayson?
how is that fair?
thats my point you cant just pick and choose what you like or dont like about his decisions on DC to say he was bad. Its a whole package.

[Dred]

I completely disagree, I think most stuff that the New 52 brought to the table were gone after 2 years
on the other hand stuff that didnt needed the New 52 stuck around, the best examples are John's GL and Snyder's Batman, those comics would had happen with or without the New 52.



But why doesnt he get credit for GM Batman but he gets the blame for Identity Crisis?
Why doesnt he get credit for Agent 37 but does get blame for Ric Grayson?
how is that fair?
thats my point you cant just pick and choose what you like or dont like about his decisions on DC to say he was bad. Its a whole package.

Name a single comic that existed during the New 52 that does not have some aspect of the New 52 relevant to its history. Even Wonder Woman still has Donna, no matter how hard they try to split them up.

Identity Crisis is an event. Presiding over and directing line wide status quo changes from events is his job. Grant Morrison Batman is another in a long line of Batman comics. If it was an event I would agree. I'd give Didio stake in Final. Crisis if there weren't reports that Grant had permission and control to ignore what Didio wanted -- which is why Didio's actual brain child during that event, Countdown to Final Crisis, was an incongruous mess that everyone knows was trash.

He should get credit for Grayson. That's a significant status quo change born of an event (forever evil). Ric is kind of the same, but less so since it was more of a crossover deal. Didio isn't wholly negative in all aspects. That was never the argument. He is incredibly, absurdly awful on the whole. Grayson seems kind of like his thing because it kept the name Nightwing off the stands for awhile. Thankfully, Orlando and King made it work. Talent can make certain ideas work. That said, did you want Dick to permanently be a spy? Because I guarantee you Didio definitely permanently wants Dick to not be around/Nightwing because he says so. I don't know why you're picking the Dick Grayson hill to die on when he literally has written scripts about killing Dick Grayson and tried to push them through.

It also isn't just as simple as "here's some good comics, here's some bad comics." There were good comics at Marvel when it crashed in the 90s. Trying to point out some good comics as proof that he's doing a good job is stupid because there's rarely a time, under any editor, where the big two didn't have some good books purely because there's always some good talent on board regardless of the leadership. There were also good comics being made before he took over.

[Arnoldoaad]

Name a single comic that existed during the New 52 that does not have some aspect of the New 52 relevant to its history. Even Wonder Woman still has Donna, no matter how hard they try to split them up.

Superman

literally not a single aspect of New 52 is remaining, it even had a good transition with the dead of the new 52 superman but then that got completely rewritten by Mxyzptlk.

Also Donna is kind of a reach too because her origin is now completely different from what was done on the old version.

[Robotman]

Superman

literally not a single aspect of New 52 is remaining, it even had a good transition with the dead of the new 52 superman but then that got completely rewritten by Mxyzptlk.

Also Donna is kind of a reach too because her origin is now completely different from what was done on the old version.

Jor El aka Mr. Oz first appeared in Johns’ run of New 52 Superman. Jor El is still playing a big role in Superman’s story.

[Dred]

Superman

literally not a single aspect of New 52 is remaining, it even had a good transition with the dead of the new 52 superman but then that got completely rewritten by Mxyzptlk.

Also Donna is kind of a reach too because her origin is now completely different from what was done on the old version.

Superman literally merged histories. Things that happened in the New 52 happened in Superman now. That was the entire point of the merge. Heck, even before the merge Dad Supes from Post-Crisis was still dealing with the fallout of the world with New 52 Superman's death. Oz exists. Some of Pak and Morrison's New 52 work has been referenced. You do know Jon Kent debuted in the New 52, right? He's not a post Rebirth character and I guarantee you he's not a pre-Flashpoint son of Superman. That would be Chris, who is now rebooted into being the evil son of Zod rather than the child Superman adopted. Not relevant, huh?

Donna's origin was changed during Titans to compromise her New 52 origin with some weirdo shitty fix that Abnett put in there. Donna and Wonder Woman fighting and Donna being a monster created by Diana's enemies to kill is still canon. That was a (terrible) new 52 story and is part of Donna, and thus Wonder Woman's, history right now. Rucka lamented that he could not touch on and fix Donna's situation like he did Diana's in his time there. So that stays.

Literally not a single aspect of the New 52, what a joke. I wish.

[Pinsir]

I mean we know he hates Nightwing because he said he does and there is concrete proof that his ideal universe has no Nightwing, only Robin.

Yet he never used his influence to quash the character because Nightwing sells. Its the perfect example of Dan Didio behaving like a business man rather than some authoritarian forcing his will onto the DCU.

[Arnoldoaad]

Jor El aka Mr. Oz first appeared in Johns’ run of New 52 Superman. Jor El is still playing a big role in Superman’s story.

hmmmm
good point, I actually totally forgot about that, I cant believe that is so old, I just look it up and that was on 2014 and then pretty much nothing happen with it until 2017

Superman literally merged histories. Things that happened in the New 52 happened in Superman now. That was the entire point of the merge. Heck, even before the merge Dad Supes from Post-Crisis was still dealing with the fallout of the world with New 52 Superman's death. Oz exists. Some of Pak and Morrison's New 52 work has been referenced. You do know Jon Kent debuted in the New 52, right? He's not a post Rebirth character and I guarantee you he's not a pre-Flashpoint son of Superman. That would be Chris, who is now rebooted into being the evil son of Zod rather than the child Superman adopted. Not relevant, huh?

ok, I take it back, there are still some stuff from the original New 52 that do kind of count
I guess my point on these is that if you could grab any old new 52 stories apply to the current continuity
What I mean by "the new 52" is when DC entirely rebooted its continuity and then released 52 new comics and the movement that that implied.

If you could grab let say the first 12 chp of Superman and Action Comics, there is almost nothing remaining from those concepts left here. or at the very least nothing that you could recognize as the same character since Superdad came into the picture.

And that is because Jon is not a New 52 character, he started in Convergence which tells the story of a superman that was not the New 52 superman.

the concept of Superdad comes from Rebirth which is not the same as the New 52

To me New 52 included Earth 2, Static Shock, Omac(which actually was written by Didio AND was pretty good) Voodoo and a bunch of Wildstorm characters that now pretty much are barely mention to form part of the same universe(midnighter is a big exception for some reason)

Donna's origin was changed during Titans to compromise her New 52 origin with some weirdo shitty fix that Abnett put in there. Donna and Wonder Woman fighting and Donna being a monster created by Diana's enemies to kill is still canon.

Thats not the same thing so it doesnt count.

you cannot grab those same chapters from Wonder Woman with Donna's origin and then say that the character in Titans is the same, her old origin is completely invalidated.

And yes I agree that the new origin sucks as well, just add it to the pile of Donna Troy's origins that most likely wont matter next time it gets retconned again

[Dred]

hmmmm
good point, I actually totally forgot about that, I cant believe that is so old, I just look it up and that was on 2014 and then pretty much nothing happen with it until 2017



ok, I take it back, there are still some stuff from the original New 52 that do kind of count
I guess my point on these is that if you could grab any old new 52 stories apply to the current continuity
What I mean by "the new 52" is when DC entirely rebooted its continuity and then released 52 new comics and the movement that that implied.

If you could grab let say the first 12 chp of Superman and Action Comics, there is almost nothing remaining from those concepts left here. or at the very least nothing that you could recognize as the same character since Superdad came into the picture.

And that is because Jon is not a New 52 character, he started in Convergence which tells the story of a superman that was not the New 52 superman.

the concept of Superdad comes from Rebirth which is not the same as the New 52

To me New 52 included Earth 2, Static Shock, Omac(which actually was written by Didio AND was pretty good) Voodoo and a bunch of Wildstorm characters that now pretty much are barely mention to form part of the same universe(midnighter is a big exception for some reason)



Thats not the same thing so it doesnt count.

you cannot grab those same chapters from Wonder Woman with Donna's origin and then say that the character in Titans is the same, her old origin is completely invalidated.

And yes I agree that the new origin sucks as well, just add it to the pile of Donna Troy's origins that most likely wont matter next time it gets retconned again

Dude, Convergence is a New 52 story. Superdad, Convergence, Jon, that entire shebang happened before they ever even knew they were doing Rebirth. They did Rebirth after that catastrophic decline during the DCYou era which was kicked off by Convergence. All still the New 52.

Donna is the same. Abnett, for some stupid reason, salvaged the Finch origin. Trust me, I read through the entire painful stupid annual just to be disappointed. Donna is still what Finch made her and only because Finch made her that way. Say what you will.

And I agree that Wonder Woman is least like the New 52 of any title that survived the Rebirth transition. But it still has some facets and that leaves every single other comic that is more like the New 52 than Wonder Woman. It's finger prints are everywhere. The entire line is hamstrung by trying to stick round Pre-Flashpoint pegs into the Square New 52 box we're stuck with. It's why Superman Reborn happened. Make the round peg squarer and the the square hole rounder, I guess.

You're talking about Earth 2 as a New 52 thing and Convergence was literally primarily driven by Earth 2 characters.