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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    Just caught up and read through issues 1 and 2. Overall, I really enjoyed both. However, there were a few things that bugged me about the clone thing.



    spoilers:
    Like at what point was the real Gwen Stacy abducted? Did peter marry a clone? It seems like the Gwen clone (Helen) and Peter were together for some time given the difference in hairstyle.

    I get that the clones would want to forge their own identity, but I imagine that Helen would have developed her own memories/feelings/attachment to Peter. I know there's not a whole lot of room to explore this kind of thing, but her leaving with Ben all smiles just felt so abrupt. (even though they did indicate that some time had passed)

    I did like the homage to the ASM #122 epilogue though.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Warren says that Norman Osborn funded him. Something called the Gemini project which seems to have been launched while Norman was in jail. And the plan was that Warren make a Norman clone to pass off as the "real Green Goblin" and so exonerate Norman, a Peter clone who Norman can make his heir. The Gwen clone was Warren going off-script and using Osborn research for his own weird fetish for blonde co-eds who aren't into him.

    So I think that Warren made the switch the first chance he got, and that as soon as Gwen went to work with him he did it. So I think the Gwen in Issue #1 is the real Gwen. The one in Issue #2 that we see throughout from the cemetary scene forward is a clone. And I think it was the clone that Peter married.

    But at the same time I think the effect of the story works best if Peter remains permanently in doubt as to which was the real Gwen and so on.
    end of spoilers

  2. #32
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    spoilers:
    Warren says that Norman Osborn funded him. Something called the Gemini project which seems to have been launched while Norman was in jail. And the plan was that Warren make a Norman clone to pass off as the "real Green Goblin" and so exonerate Norman, a Peter clone who Norman can make his heir. The Gwen clone was Warren going off-script and using Osborn research for his own weird fetish for blonde co-eds who aren't into him.

    So I think that Warren made the switch the first chance he got, and that as soon as Gwen went to work with him he did it. So I think the Gwen in Issue #1 is the real Gwen. The one in Issue #2 that we see throughout from the cemetary scene forward is a clone. And I think it was the clone that Peter married.

    But at the same time I think the effect of the story works best if Peter remains permanently in doubt as to which was the real Gwen and so on.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    I agree on that analysis. And either way, for Peter, that was the real Gwen, and even if either one of them died, he still lost her. That's so sad.
    end of spoilers
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  3. #33
    Amazing Member Nerdman3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    spoilers:
    Warren says that Norman Osborn funded him. Something called the Gemini project which seems to have been launched while Norman was in jail. And the plan was that Warren make a Norman clone to pass off as the "real Green Goblin" and so exonerate Norman, a Peter clone who Norman can make his heir. The Gwen clone was Warren going off-script and using Osborn research for his own weird fetish for blonde co-eds who aren't into him.

    So I think that Warren made the switch the first chance he got, and that as soon as Gwen went to work with him he did it. So I think the Gwen in Issue #1 is the real Gwen. The one in Issue #2 that we see throughout from the cemetary scene forward is a clone. And I think it was the clone that Peter married.

    But at the same time I think the effect of the story works best if Peter remains permanently in doubt as to which was the real Gwen and so on.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Yeah, though to me it seems more likely and would make a bit more sense with the ending if Peter married the original Gwen and after that is when Gwen got cloned and replaced. That way it makes more sense in my mind for why Helen would leave.
    end of spoilers

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    spoilers:
    I agree on that analysis. And either way, for Peter, that was the real Gwen, and even if either one of them died, he still lost her. That's so sad.
    end of spoilers
    It's really sad. I mean it's a horror that builds up. I mean of course we don't think clones are real people, of course Peter did, so he shrugged off Harry doing what he did. It's awful but it's just so perfectly done.

    Me and Prof. Warren were discussing in Issue #1 about Peter turning in Norman versus letting him go originally and he pointed out it might turn out the same way, but I felt that at least this time it would occur within Peter's agency and actions and not melodrama. This time this is really his fault even moreso than before.

    spoilers:
    And there's also the tragic payback. Peter went out of line before insulting Reed for Sue leaving him...well look what happens to him. And there's also that bit earlier where Peter admits his spider-sense hums around Warren. So there's a tragic level of indecision, hubris and passivity there.

    And of course Peter would kick himself, "How couldn't I tell she was a clone, I should have known?" I mean what happened in Superior with others not knowing that Peter had his body stolen...is now Peter's cross to bear with Gwen. It's like Secret Invasion with Hawkeye and that Mockingbird Skrull wife. Then he meets the real Mockingbird and learns about the switch.
    end of spoilers

    Issue #3 is Secret Wars and Chip Zdarsky has said that Secret Wars is the first comic he ever read as a kid, so I actually think the next one will be lighter, if only because Zdarsky is getting to inhabit the world of his childhood, in that meta "this is where I came in" sense.

  5. #35
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It's really sad. I mean it's a horror that builds up. I mean of course we don't think clones are real people, of course Peter did, so he shrugged off Harry doing what he did. It's awful but it's just so perfectly done.

    Me and Prof. Warren were discussing in Issue #1 about Peter turning in Norman versus letting him go originally and he pointed out it might turn out the same way, but I felt that at least this time it would occur within Peter's agency and actions and not melodrama. This time this is really his fault even moreso than before.

    spoilers:
    And there's also the tragic payback. Peter went out of line before insulting Reed for Sue leaving him...well look what happens to him. And there's also that bit earlier where Peter admits his spider-sense hums around Warren. So there's a tragic level of indecision, hubris and passivity there.

    And of course Peter would kick himself, "How couldn't I tell she was a clone, I should have known?" I mean what happened in Superior with others not knowing that Peter had his body stolen...is now Peter's cross to bear with Gwen. It's like Secret Invasion with Hawkeye and that Mockingbird Skrull wife. Then he meets the real Mockingbird and learns about the switch.
    end of spoilers

    Issue #3 is Secret Wars and Chip Zdarsky has said that Secret Wars is the first comic he ever read as a kid, so I actually think the next one will be lighter, if only because Zdarsky is getting to inhabit the world of his childhood, in that meta "this is where I came in" sense.
    As much as I think it's going to be lighter, I think the 80s may be even darker than the 70s. You got so much that happened that he can retell, but I'm so excited.
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  6. #36
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    As much as I think it's going to be lighter, I think the 80s may be even darker than the 70s. You got so much that happened that he can retell, but I'm so excited.
    I get the feeling that Issue #3, even though it's advertised as adapting Secret Wars, will have a Civil War tint to it. Instead of a cosmic game of Heroes vs Villains, it'll be Team Cap vs Team Stark.
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    I get the feeling that Issue #3, even though it's advertised as adapting Secret Wars, will have a Civil War tint to it. Instead of a cosmic game of Heroes vs Villains, it'll be Team Cap vs Team Stark.
    Where would Doom fit in that? You can't have Secret Wars without the main character of that event after all.

  8. #38
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    I get the feeling that Issue #3, even though it's advertised as adapting Secret Wars, will have a Civil War tint to it. Instead of a cosmic game of Heroes vs Villains, it'll be Team Cap vs Team Stark.
    I think I agree with you. Zdarsky has been testing that hard with how different heroes are viewing the world. On top of that, what better way to bridge the years with one of the biggest events of Marvel?
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  9. #39
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Where would Doom fit in that? You can't have Secret Wars without the main character of that event after all.
    Oddly enough I'd say if this scenario were to happen, Doom would be Team Cap. Maybe him hijacking everything for his own priorities is what leads to the teams finally stop fighting.
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    just wanted to reiterate: this is the most interesting and fresh take out of the spider office in decades
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  11. #41
    Peter Scott/Scott Peter SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Renew Your Vows had Jean leaving Scott for Wolverine too.
    Was that supposed to be some kind of defense? I hated that too. It adds absolutely nothing to the world or Peter's life.

    And I can't believe people are confused about Peter's age here. This world has no sliding timescale. So in 1962, Peter is 15. Now count from there.

    And why are we using spoiler tags in this thread?!
    “Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike.”
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  12. #42
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Was that supposed to be some kind of defense? I hated that too. It adds absolutely nothing to the world or Peter's life.

    And I can't believe people are confused about Peter's age here. This world has no sliding timescale. So in 1962, Peter is 15. Now count from there.

    And why are we using spoiler tags in this thread?!
    You seem exceedingly angry about this whole thing, and it's kind of uncomfortable.
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  13. #43
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I mean of course we don't think clones are real people
    uh...don't we?
    Last edited by boots; 04-17-2019 at 10:19 PM.
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  14. #44
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    You seem exceedingly angry about this whole thing, and it's kind of uncomfortable.
    just a tad awkward, yeah

    personally, i like the feeling that almost anything can happen in the AU...and a lot of it, even unexpected, just makes sense

    here, the writer gets to actually explore concepts to a logical conclusion instead of the perpetual limbo that they say long form superhero story telling has to conform to. and being an AU, it hurts nobody
    troo fan or death

  15. #45
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    just a tad awkward, yeah

    personally, i like the feeling that almost anything can happen in the AU...and a lot of it, even unexpected, just makes sense

    here, the writer gets to actually explore concepts to a logical conclusion instead of the perpetual limbo that they say long form superhero story telling has to conform to. and being an AU, it hurts nobody
    Agreed on the whole! AUs have a ton more freedom and aren't beheld to years of continuity.
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