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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I'd also argue the Gwen switch up took place recently. For one thing, Warren hadn't had time yet to leave with the real Gwen, which I assume he was going to do as quickly as he could (and probably had no intention of giving Norman what he wanted now that he was blinded by his personal infatuation).
    It's cool how Norman Osborn was still responsible for Gwen's death and his masterminding of Warren explains so many things that the first and second clone saga didn't. How did an ESU hack professor like Warren invent human cloning, where did he get the money for those elaborate labs and tech that he used in the second saga on ESU wages, and did Norman plan each and every single thing and so on?

    Here Norman funded Warren's new business venture and project behind the scenes and told him that he can have it if he gives Norman the clones he asked for. Then this guy delays and focuses on Gwen because he's a creep...Norman gets fed up and asks Harry to pay a visit to him like a mob hitman and things just go wrong in so many ways at once. It feels more believable and grounded, and it feels like a Spider-Man story finally.

  2. #77
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It's cool how Norman Osborn was still responsible for Gwen's death and his masterminding of Warren explains so many things that the first and second clone saga didn't. How did an ESU hack professor like Warren invent human cloning, where did he get the money for those elaborate labs and tech that he used in the second saga on ESU wages, and did Norman plan each and every single thing and so on?

    Here Norman funded Warren's new business venture and project behind the scenes and told him that he can have it if he gives Norman the clones he asked for. Then this guy delays and focuses on Gwen because he's a creep...Norman gets fed up and asks Harry to pay a visit to him like a mob hitman and things just go wrong in so many ways at once. It feels more believable and grounded, and it feels like a Spider-Man story finally.
    Having just read a little about the second Clone Saga, I 100% agree. This makes far more sense. If Clone Saga is adapted in a movie/show, I hope they use this instead. :P
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  3. #78
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    It's not like the 90s Clone Saga was some masterfully plotted out epic.

    This series continues to impress. While I said I sort of expected Gwen to die in this issue, I did not expect it to happen as it did, and did not expect it to tie together with the Clone Saga.

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    That was pretty bonkers. Still enjoying it.

    I was hoping Gwen wouldn't die in this continuity. Even if the plan is still to hew to 616 on some of the big things like Peter and MJ, I almost would have preferred Peter and Gwen getting divorced . . . maybe after Felicia shows up to complicate things.

    I'm definitely really liking it and I absolutely would like to see the more detailed version Zdarsky had in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    just wanted to reiterate: this is the most interesting and fresh take out of the spider office in decades
    AUs for the win. Ultimate Spider-Man, New Frontier, American Alien . . .

  5. #80
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Yah, this was amazing. I thought last issue was very good, but this just took things to a new level:

    -Gwen's death but with even more tragedy.
    -Warren. The way it went down - max-creepiness level.
    -Harry becoming the goblin due to being used by Norman, rather than to revenge him
    -Ben Parker finding happiness with Gwen Clone. Just brilliant stuff right there.
    -MJ full on confronting Peter about his need to grow up

    For me the highlight was the emotion of the two interactions between MJ and Peter, so raw and engaging - just like how two real people who've known each other since high school might talk about all that stuff at around late 20s, early 30s.

    Hard to imagine Peter being 40 in the next issue. I don't think we will see the Secret Wars we all know about, but maybe we'll see some kind of Skrull introduction along with a superhero registration act. Just shots in the dark there. All we know is he will have a family and there will be a Secret Wars and the symbiote will be involved. Beyond that, who knows? This series is just too whackadoodle to predict anything.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It's cool how Norman Osborn was still responsible for Gwen's death and his masterminding of Warren explains so many things that the first and second clone saga didn't. How did an ESU hack professor like Warren invent human cloning, where did he get the money for those elaborate labs and tech that he used in the second saga on ESU wages, and did Norman plan each and every single thing and so on?

    Here Norman funded Warren's new business venture and project behind the scenes and told him that he can have it if he gives Norman the clones he asked for. Then this guy delays and focuses on Gwen because he's a creep...Norman gets fed up and asks Harry to pay a visit to him like a mob hitman and things just go wrong in so many ways at once. It feels more believable and grounded, and it feels like a Spider-Man story finally.
    How do any of the mad scientists fund their research?

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    How do any of the mad scientists fund their research?
    Usually by criminal means. Octopus is a gangster and has been for a good part of his life so whatever tech and doomsday weapons he uses like in The Owl/Octopus War, he steals money, buys illegally and so on. That's how the Master Planner did it too. Norman Osborn was born rich and became richer and so on, and he has his pies in all kinds of criminal stuff, so no need for answers there. Curt Connors wasn't a mad scientist, he was a regular scientist who had a legit scientific project that went south and he was funded by university grants (and in some stories, university funding being cut off is the reason he experimented on himself since he needs to produce results to justify additional funding).

    Other Spider-Man villains are either victims of radiation fallout (Sandman), government or corporate projects, or in the case of Vulture, a mechanical engineer and tech guy who got screwed over by his partner. Chameleon is a government spy, Kraven is a rich White Russian aristocrat so that allows him to fund and partner up with Arcade and others, and pay for his crazy schemes.

    Usually when you have a character or villain, such questions and ideas are not spelled out since writers and artists answer it economically, concisely in a way that it makes sense. With badly designed characters and Miles Warren Jackal is definitely a badly designed character if he is to be seen as anything more than a one-off villain, such questions come out of the woodwork.

  8. #83
    mutant and proud ermac's Avatar
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    I loved the first issue. I found it extremely well written, "remaking" important stories and packing a lot of classic subplots in just one issue.

    This one took more liberties with the source material and most of them I found lackluster.

    The good:
    - Heroes fighting in Vietnam
    - MJ marrying Harry is an interesting take
    - Peter actually having a career and working with Reed
    - Little insights such as Sue with Namor and Dr Connor's cure

    The bad:
    - The new costume is ugly and unnecessary
    - Black Goblin? What does that add to the story?
    - Gwen's death being so uninspiring compared to the original
    - Peter marrying a clone and that clone leaving him for HIS clone. Or was the Peter we followed the bearded one in the ending? F*ck, I don't even care, it doesn't make sense anyway.

  9. #84
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Usually by criminal means. Octopus is a gangster and has been for a good part of his life so whatever tech and doomsday weapons he uses like in The Owl/Octopus War, he steals money, buys illegally and so on. That's how the Master Planner did it too. Norman Osborn was born rich and became richer and so on, and he has his pies in all kinds of criminal stuff, so no need for answers there. Curt Connors wasn't a mad scientist, he was a regular scientist who had a legit scientific project that went south and he was funded by university grants (and in some stories, university funding being cut off is the reason he experimented on himself since he needs to produce results to justify additional funding).

    Other Spider-Man villains are either victims of radiation fallout (Sandman), government or corporate projects, or in the case of Vulture, a mechanical engineer and tech guy who got screwed over by his partner. Chameleon is a government spy, Kraven is a rich White Russian aristocrat so that allows him to fund and partner up with Arcade and others, and pay for his crazy schemes.

    Usually when you have a character or villain, such questions and ideas are not spelled out since writers and artists answer it economically, concisely in a way that it makes sense. With badly designed characters and Miles Warren Jackal is definitely a badly designed character if he is to be seen as anything more than a one-off villain, such questions come out of the woodwork.
    Jack I think he was being sarcastic. :P
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  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by ermac View Post
    - MJ marrying Harry is an interesting take
    The dialogue explicitly says she's his fiancee. They are engaged and living together but not married. Though the dialogue at the end where Harry apparently left his stuff to MJ can give people the wrong idea.

  11. #86
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermac View Post
    I loved the first issue. I found it extremely well written, "remaking" important stories and packing a lot of classic subplots in just one issue.

    This one took more liberties with the source material and most of them I found lackluster.

    The good:
    - Heroes fighting in Vietnam
    - MJ marrying Harry is an interesting take
    - Peter actually having a career and working with Reed
    - Little insights such as Sue with Namor and Dr Connor's cure

    The bad:
    - The new costume is ugly and unnecessary
    - Black Goblin? What does that add to the story?
    - Gwen's death being so uninspiring compared to the original
    - Peter marrying a clone and that clone leaving him for HIS clone. Or was the Peter we followed the bearded one in the ending? F*ck, I don't even care, it doesn't make sense anyway.
    Ugly and unnecessary? What? He's not allowed to upgrade his costume?
    And Peter didn't marry a clone. He married the real Gwen, but when she went to work for Warren, he kidnapped her and replaced her. As for the clones leaving together, who knows what happened between Gwen's death and the clones leaving. Maybe he tried to make it work but couldn't. Maybe he didn't want to.

    Honestly, reading posts like this make me think that it's being negative for the sake of negativity.
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermac View Post
    - MJ marrying Harry is an interesting take
    They were engaged, and it's actually another tribute to the 90s animated series. MJ was engaged to Harry there too, but she broke it off when Harry proved to be a coward while he, MJ, and a couple of others were captured. It's a big contribution to Harry becoming bitter at Peter for the rest of the series and ultimately becoming the Goblin.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 04-18-2019 at 12:07 PM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Ugly and unnecessary? What? He's not allowed to upgrade his costume?
    And Peter didn't marry a clone. He married the real Gwen, but when she went to work for Warren, he kidnapped her and replaced her. As for the clones leaving together, who knows what happened between Gwen's death and the clones leaving. Maybe he tried to make it work but couldn't. Maybe he didn't want to.

    Honestly, reading posts like this make me think that it's being negative for the sake of negativity.
    While I like the fact that he upgraded his costume, the costume in itself could look better.

  14. #89
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    While I like the fact that he upgraded his costume, the costume in itself could look better.
    Maybe, but it's for one issue, you know? And he'll probably upgrade even throughout (especially in the 90s)
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Honestly, reading posts like this make me think that it's being negative for the sake of negativity.
    Or maybe people have different opinions and levels of enjoyment.

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