Ultron vs Thanos (MCU)

[choptop]

It's not a fully powerd IG though allso the thing on Titan and nowere looks more like illusions to me.

[KJS]

Where is this argument coming from that Thanos wouldn't see a nuclear strike coming?? Given what we know he's already done with a MOON, he could just stop any incoming missiles in mid-flight with consummate ease.

If Thanos has ships in orbit then they'd be monitoring the Earth below, so he'd be notified of any launches the second they occurred.

^^ Yeah, there's that, too ^^

And the Mind Stone has absolutely never allowed for the tracking of people in the way suggested (especially not those whose location isn't already 100% known).

We can't grant the Mind Stone new feats, whilst at the same time saying "the Reality Stone couldn't turn a missile to bubbles" - even though we've literally seen it reshape landscapes that were entirely real (even to the touch) to those it was fooling at the time.

I'll reiterate: If Ultron has three years of prep to create millions of drones, Thanos will bring his full armada too. He'll come with three Infinity Stones, get the Time Stone (Strange, in-character, hasn't run from a fight yet in the MCU), and laugh off anything thrown at him when he's got four Infinity Stones, the Black Order and his full tech/army at his disposal - probably while fooling his opponents into seeing a world (and indeed a Thanos) that is nothing more than an illusionary decoy.

And I don't know how Ultron would get to make so many things out of Wakandan vibranium. We're in a scenario here where Wakanda hasn't made itself known to the world. Even in three years, I'm not sure how or why he'd wander into thick African rainforest to overcome the illusion/barrier that disguises Wakanda. And even if, for some inexplicable reason, he discovers it, there's no reason to believe he could get in through the shield - or that Shuri wouldn't just shut him down.

For Ultron to win here, we've got to grant him a crap-load of feats he hasn't proven capable of, while dismissing Thanos as a moron (Ultron being someone who lost to a team of nine Avengers, while Thanos basically solo'd his way through a considerably larger array of heroes).

[choptop]

The moon wasn't a moving Target tho allso it didn't seem like he had a lot of control of the moon thing he just sorta ripped it off and let it fly.

[big_adventure]

Where is this argument coming from that Thanos wouldn't see a nuclear strike coming?? Given what we know he's already done with a MOON, he could just stop any incoming missiles in mid-flight with consummate ease.



^^ Yeah, there's that, too ^^

And the Mind Stone has absolutely never allowed for the tracking of people in the way suggested (especially not those whose location isn't already 100% known).

We can't grant the Mind Stone new feats, whilst at the same time saying "the Reality Stone couldn't turn a missile to bubbles" - even though we've literally seen it reshape landscapes that were entirely real (even to the touch) to those it was fooling at the time.

I'll reiterate: If Ultron has three years of prep to create millions of drones, Thanos will bring his full armada too. He'll come with three Infinity Stones, get the Time Stone (Strange, in-character, hasn't run from a fight yet in the MCU), and laugh off anything thrown at him when he's got four Infinity Stones, the Black Order and his full tech/army at his disposal - probably while fooling his opponents into seeing a world (and indeed a Thanos) that is nothing more than an illusionary decoy.

And I don't know how Ultron would get to make so many things out of Wakandan vibranium. We're in a scenario here where Wakanda hasn't made itself known to the world. Even in three years, I'm not sure how or why he'd wander into thick African rainforest to overcome the illusion/barrier that disguises Wakanda. And even if, for some inexplicable reason, he discovers it, there's no reason to believe he could get in through the shield - or that Shuri wouldn't just shut him down.

For Ultron to win here, we've got to grant him a crap-load of feats he hasn't proven capable of, while dismissing Thanos as a moron (Ultron being someone who lost to a team of nine Avengers, while Thanos basically solo'd his way through a considerably larger array of heroes).

I pretty much agree on the outcome based on the stone thing, but, a couple of points...

In less than a week of life, Ultron found out about Wakanda, about vibranium and about what you can do with it - enough to make the "they make a frisbee out of it" joke. 3 years on, he's definitely going to have access to whatever he wants there, both tech and metal. Also, isn't the entire human population dead in this situation? This is after Ultron "wins" after all, meaning that there is nobody in Wakanda left to resist him.

Shuri has no feats for "shutting Ultron down" so you can't handwave something like that. Shuri is presented as smart, but Stark's tech and Pym's tech are outright BETTER (Bleeding Edge is Black Panther suit times a billion, more or less), and Stark definitely has better hacking feats. Outriders - single ones, being things killed by what appear to be regular bullets - managed to force themselves through the shield. Sure, with high costs, but Ultron cares less than Thanos about losing his mooks.

For the nuke launch thing... I dunno, Thanos' fleet doesn't have crazy sensor feats, and this is three years after IW, where SHIELD tech can't track the stealth array Stark chucked onto the quinjet as an afterthought/plot builder. Ultron would have access to that tech, plus Pym shrink-tech.

So if Thanos is stupid enough to go "frontal assaults are fun" without the time or mind stones, his entire army and the Black Order get killed. He might as well.

Buuuuuut... nothing suggests Thanos is that stupid, and there is no reason for him to NOT just chuck the moon at the earth with the 4 stones he has, then go digging around the wreckage for the other two stones. Mileage may vary.

[KJS]

In less than a week of life, Ultron found out about Wakanda

Ultron never found out about Wakanda. The only time Wakanda was mentioned in Age of Ultron was when Banner brought it up, mispronounced it, then the Avengers had a very brief discussion about it (due to the language Klaue's branding was written in).

Wakanda's networks weren't connected to those on the outside world. It stands to reason that Ultron found out about vibranium because of a) Captain America's shield and b) Klaue's business dealings. All the vibranium Ultron obtained was stored in that shipyard in South Africa.

Also, isn't the entire human population dead in this situation? This is after Ultron "wins" after all, meaning that there is nobody in Wakanda left to resist him.

It says Ultron won. It doesn't say the entire human population is dead. Wakanda has managed to remain hidden for at least several centuries so far - in fact, the vibranium meteor landed there 2.5 million years ago. With all the tech in the world - as well as genius minds like Stark, Banner et al - Wakanda managed to hold up its guise as a third world farming country (I know it was on a S.H.I.E.L.D. map as a hotspot of sorts, but that was really just an Easter egg, as all evidence points to nobody knowing about its true nature).

I'm not sure even Ultron finds out about it in just three years. It's hidden beyond dense forest, which I see no reason for him to venture into. It's then hidden underneath some kind of technologically-enabled illusion, and surrounded by a force-field beyond that. And, even if he does get in, I still really fail to see how he gets in and takes over it completely in that time.

Shuri has no feats for "shutting Ultron down" so you can't handwave something like that.

Shuri created tech that shut down all technology nearby - as shown in the opening scenes of Black Panther. It's not really handwaving it when there's proof she can do it. Given the scale of technology she can create (the gigantic force-field, for example), I see no reason why she couldn't create larger EMP-type stuff to mass shut down attacking Ultron drones. With prep, we're assuming Ultron can do things on a larger scale than he showed previously - assuming Shuri knew the world had been taken over by robots, I'm sure she'd prep for a conflict with said robots.

If we're just granting Ultron control of Wakanda for the sake of the thread, fair enough. But just saying he "won" wouldn't guarantee Wakanda being compromised along with the rest of the Earth.

[Captain Morgan]

Buuuuuut... nothing suggests Thanos is that stupid, and there is no reason for him to NOT just chuck the moon at the earth with the 4 stones he has, then go digging around the wreckage for the other two stones. Mileage may vary.

Dude, plenty suggests Thanos is that stupid. His actions in all the previous movies, like giving Loki the mind stone and not just having him hand over the space stone, or outsourcing retrieving the power stone to an egomaniac with no real loyalty to him spring to mind. His whole "wipe out half of all life to save the universe" thing is stupid if you stop and think about it. Marvel confirmed he also wiped out half of all plants and animals too, which means he also halved the resources needed to sustain the actual civilizations and massively destabilized their ecosystems. Half of what's left of Earth's bees are gone along half of the plants that make its oxygen, and the planet is supposed to be better off? And even if this didn't immediately make everything worse, it's a temporary solution to overpopulation at best-- it only took Earth 50 years to double its population to over 7 billion. You need to actually curb birth rates to prevent that from happening again, and nothing suggests that is going to happen anywhere Thanos isn't directly overseeing. Which is everywhere. Google MCU Thanos is dumb, there's a billion articles about it.

Now, most of this isn't Thanos being presented as dumb in universe so much as its the writers leaving huge plot wholes that don't hold up under a second of audience scrutiny. And that's a subtle but important distinction. CW Barry Allen is an idiot if we apply any level of critical thought to him, but universe is supposed to be clever, which means he largely suffers from PIS instead of CIS. Fictional characters are usually constrained by the intelligence and effort of their writers, who typically aren't super geniuses capable of engineering cosmic take overs or inspiring cults of millions or whatever. Thanos is supposed to be smart, I think, or at least charismatic enough to get a practically limitless number of followers who would die for him. Of course, he's also still called "Mad" in universe, and while we never see the Avengers really dig into why Thanos's masterplan is a bad idea, they all certainly think it is. So there's room to suggest he's not an especially rational actor in universe too.

[Arsenal]

His plan to use Loki & Ronan to bring him the stones were both strategically sound ones. In theory, both allow him to continue his crusade without the universe discovering its Attlia the Hun was actually searching for 6 of the most powerful objects ever. Even if they betrayed him and kept the stones, neither are a threat that he can’t easily handle. Just because it doesn’t work doesn’t make it idiotic.

[Captain Morgan]

His plan to use Loki & Ronan to bring him the stones were both strategically sound ones. In theory, both allow him to continue his crusade without the universe discovering its Attlia the Hun was actually searching for 6 of the most powerful objects ever. Even if they betrayed him and kept the stones, neither are a threat that he can’t easily handle. Just because it doesn’t work doesn’t make it idiotic.

If his only reason to use them is that it stops people from knowing he's looking... that seems like an awful lot riding on no one just saying who hired them. Which is dumb.

[Arsenal]

If his only reason to use them is that it stops people from knowing he's looking... that seems like an awful lot riding on no one just saying who hired them. Which is dumb.

He has the most powerful army the Galaxy has ever seen (according to Banner) with a tendency to invade planets and kill half its population. It’s a pretty good motivation for Ronan (who only has 1 ship) and Loki (whose entire army is on loan from Thanos) to keep their mouths shut.

Or he maybe uses them, gets the stone and kills them afterward. Either one works.

[The Arbiter]

Thanos did NOT wipe out half of plants. I don't care what anyone said lol. He just didn't. We are treated to many scenes where huge clusters of trees or large grass fields have NO destroyed vegetation.

It just doesn't/didn't happen. Whoever said that in whatever interview r dumb. :P

[Darth Drizzle]

The Mind Stone while encased and stuck in a staff instantly connected Loki to Thanos telepathically across the universe. That already happened, so now saying that Ultron who has the Mind Stone embedded in his head for 3 years somehow can't do it is very odd. Also Ultron was all of 3 days old or so during the Movie and he accomplished that much, so him with 3 years worth of learning by himself would make him much more smarter than even Stark or Banner ever were.

So yes Ultron would be able to detect Thanos mind as easy as opening a new tab in your browser and keeping it open, as again this exact contact has been done already. He doesn't have to poke at Thanos mind, he doesn't even have to appear to Thanos mentally if he doesn't want to(Loki did or was required to) to know he is there. But Ultron would definitely know where Thanos is when the invasion starts.

Then their is the intelligence boost he gains from the Stone. The Mind Stone when examined by Stark and Banner said it contained a huge amount of information and worked/looked like a super computer, and we saw it give normal people a huge intelligence boost(Hawkeye and Selvig). So Ultron and his super computer mind combining with the Mind Stones super computer like interface and given 3 years worth of studying/using it would absolutely give him mastery over the item.

Wakanda would be found as both Klaw and Killmonger who didn't control the entire Internet found it, and the only Magic about Wakanda was it's magic plants that gives Black Panther powers. So Ultron w/Mind Stone can hack into Wakandan tech just like every other tech he's taken over.

Also the Nukes won't be today's conventional Nukes, as Ultron has Schematics and Blueprints from Hydra/Stark and every military on the planet, and it's been proven that Infinity powered weapons are much more devestating than conventional ones. So after 3 years of experiments Ultrons Nukes could/would be smaller and much more powerful than anything created before. Remember at 3 Days old he weaponized an entire city after taking over the World's Internet and one of it's smartist people's technology(Stark). This is him 3 Years later and boosted by an Infinity Stone which he has mastered by this time.

If Thanos does bring his Ship to Earth orbit than Nothing suggests this versionof Ultron can't take it over with impunity, or shut down all the flyers/fighter vehicles his soldiers try to use.

If Doctor Strange was attacked by the Order at his Sanctum I give him the win as that place gives him a huge home field advantage, and again if Thanos himself gets into Earth orbit Ultron would know and react accordingly so the Time Stone and the Mind Stone are both out of Thanos hand for the big fight.

And it might be overstated but the sheer firepower and destructive capabilities of each drone is being undersold. E en if the drones aren't Vibranium bodied they would have Hydra/Wakanda/Stark spec'd weapons. It may have been awhile since you have seen those Hydra weapons firepower but they were potent, and Wakandas weapons were obliterating cars in one shot, and Starks early armor weapons were one shotting tanks and his Lasers were slicing through multiple Armor suits li!e butter. All of this is before a Mind Stone boosted and Year plus old Ultron puts his own enhancements on them.

So whether it's constant high powered nukes in orbit, or a old school ground war like the movies I think it's Ultron fight to lose.

[The Arbiter]

Didnt Vision have the mind stone for many years? He himself is a potent AI with learning/growing parameters.

All he ever managed with the thing was "energy blasts".

[Darth Drizzle]

Didnt Vision have the mind stone for many years? He himself is a potent AI with learning/growing parameters.

All he ever managed with the thing was "energy blasts".

He and Ultron were as different as night and day. Ultron had plans to use the Mind Stone when nobody else knew the Mind Stone was inside the Staff. Vision simp!y wanted to be a normal human and not fight at all.

Plus when Vision was even younger than Ultron and had the Mind Stone he was barely able to kick Ultron out of the Internet while Ultron was Multi Tasking like crazy, showing that he didn't/couldn't even use the Mind Stone well or knew what it truely was. After the fight there was no need and he had no interest to explore the Mind Gems power.

We know Ultron was seeking power and upgrades and knew about the Mind Stone, so yes he would absolutely access the full potential of the Stone he himself aquired.

[Captain Morgan]

He has the most powerful army the Galaxy has ever seen (according to Banner) with a tendency to invade planets and kill half its population. It’s a pretty good motivation for Ronan (who only has 1 ship) and Loki (whose entire army is on loan from Thanos) to keep their mouths shut.

Or he maybe uses them, gets the stone and kills them afterward. Either one works.

Or, you know, just go in and out get the stones himself. Which even he eventually realized is what he should have done in the first place.

And anyway you slice it, I don't see how any of this justifies handing one of the stones over to Loki. It wasn't just that Loki and Ronan failed to bring him the stones, it was that he was actively giving them up. This does not a clever man make.

[Arsenal]

Or, you know, just go in and out get the stones himself. Which even he eventually realized is what he should have done in the first place.

And anyway you slice it, I don't see how any of this justifies handing one of the stones over to Loki. It wasn't just that Loki and Ronan failed to bring him the stones, it was
that he was actively giving them up. This does not a clever man make.

When Thanos made his move and "did it himself", he knew exactly how to get all the stones so he launched several invasions in rapid succession to acquire them before anybody could intervene. That wasn't the case when he was still using proxies. Sure, he could've done it himself from the beginning but it only would've made his job much harder in the long run.

He gave Loki a staff with the mind stone hidden inside of it so that he could make the people on Earth build the machine to bring the invasion force to Earth. That justifies what he did. Was it risky? Obviously. But since we're never given a reason to believe Loki knew what he possessed nor did Earth have anything to suggest they were capable of winning, on paper the risks were minimal.