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  1. #31
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    What was the Anti-Monitor's status quo at the end of Darkseid War? Did he just kill Darkseid, then leave for parts unknown?
    It was all kind of murky; all I seem to recall is that Anti-Monitor assumed a more humanlike form, but apparently has since reverted to his traditional form.

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  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    What was the Anti-Monitor's status quo at the end of Darkseid War? Did he just kill Darkseid, then leave for parts unknown?
    As far as I remember, he killed Darkseid, which allowed him to be separated from the Anti-Life Equation, which was then fused with Steve Trevor, then with MAZAHS II who was sacrificed to make Darkseid reborn as Grail's slave. As for Mobius, he was killed but I don't remember by whom.

  3. #33
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post


    Is this the current understanding of the Dawn of Time?
    Destiny can't be there to witness the Dawn of time.

    Time is his father.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  4. #34
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    As far as I remember, he killed Darkseid, which allowed him to be separated from the Anti-Life Equation, which was then fused with Steve Trevor, then with MAZAHS II who was sacrificed to make Darkseid reborn as Grail's slave. As for Mobius, he was killed but I don't remember by whom.
    ...I think it was Grail? I'd have to re-read the story.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Destiny can't be there to witness the Dawn of time.

    Time is his father.
    According to the Book of Magic, Destiny was already there, but with primordial beings, I suppose the concept of time is relative

  6. #36
    Spectacular Member Tenzel Kim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Not exactly a lot of action and adventure, and the Justice League itself doesn't even appear, but we finally DO get some clarity (or more confusion, depending on how you see things) on the origins of the Monitor, Anti-Monitor, and the Multiverse. It also reconciles Marv Wolfman's origins of the Monitor and Anti-Monitor from COIE with Grant Morrison's take in FINAL CRISIS/MULTIVERSITY, Geoff Johns' take in DARKSEID WAR, and Scott Snyder's from DARK NIGHTS: METAL. If you're into the whole cosmology/chronology of the DC Multiverse, this was quite a read.
    I quite liked this issue as well, but I'm not so sure I agree that it reconciles Wolfman's COIE origin and Morrison's origin in Final Crisis/Multiversity. In fact it seems to me that this origin diverts quite a bit from Morrison's making it hard to really reconcile the two. Not so much COIE and FC/Multiversity but rather this new one and Morrison's. I've actually been trying to figure out how it all fits but I'm running into a few obstacles and haven't been able to find anyone who could really clear things up so I'm going to try here as well.

    First of all let me say that this new origin works very well with Wolfman's and actually gives the two characters some depth that really suits the characters.

    However, when you look at Morrison's origin it doesn't quite seem to line up, as his Monitor probe is stated to have been split in two, suggesting that those two were the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor from COIE, which doesn't fit with them and the World Forger being the sons of Perpetua. There might be ways to explain this but it is not so clear-cut.

    Whether or not there are additional problems depends on how exactly Morrison's should be read. I've seen it interpreted a number of different ways but haven't found anything by Morrison that fully clarifies it.

    The first and biggest problem is who exactly Dax Novu is supposed to be.

    In Superman Beyond we learn that in the beginning "there was Monitor only! And then! Then a flaw is found at the heart of Monitor perfection. Monitor makes a concept to contain the flaw". Now this part seems to fit what is seen in the Multiversity page I've posted here, except that the Multiversity page changes the name of the Monitor to Monitor-Mind the Over-Void, which I would say is probably just a clarification, so that part is fine.

    The problem arises in how the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor come to be and who the Monitor is. In both versions we learn that a probe is sent to investigate. The Multiversity page has it a bit odd though as it starts by stating that "Of the Over-Void is Monitor born and Anti-Monitor" and then in the next panel it is stated that “For study, Monitor-Mind brings forth Science Monitor Dax Novu. Who selflessly enters the flaw and is contaminated and split in two” Now my understanding would be that the split would be into Monitor and Anti-Monitor, but if both were already created then who is it he is split into?

    Another problem I have is that in Superman Beyond, the probe appears to be the Monitor we know as we see an image of him during the Crisis. However, in the text it states that he is blinded by what he sees and is split in two, before he withdraws. Based on that I guess Dax Novu can’t be the Monitor of Crisis as the Monitor and Anti-Monitor were created at the same time. So is Dax Novu "just" the probe, who upon entering the flaw (the DC Universe) actually saw the two beings he would be split into, before he himself would withdraw from the Multiverse? We know that Dax Novu is the monitor who would end up locking himself up in the Monitor Sphere only to return as Mandrakk.

    In the new origin the COIE Monitor is referred to as Mar Novu, as he was in the Arrowverse, so that might be a simple mistake. On the other hand we've seen what looked to be the COIE Monitor in Dark Nights: Metal (where he was referred to as the Over-Monitor) and we've also seen the return of Mandrakk (the Dax Novu version, not the Rox Ogama one) in the pages of the Unexpected, which would suggest that Dax Novu was not the Monitor of COIE.

    Now if the Monitor probe (Dax Novu) and Mar Novu are supposed to be the same then the appearance of Perpetua seems to completely invalidate Morrison's origin. If they are not the same, then only the part about him splitting into two seems to be in question. The latter might be explained as a result of the Monitor and Anti-Monitor becoming part of the "flaw" (the narrative of the DC Universe) and that this narrative simply expanded and devised an in-universe explanation for these two beings entering from outside of the multiverse with no explanation that worked within the confines of the multiverse itself.

    Anyway, I'd be very interested in hearing your or anybody else's thoughts on this. What are your thoughts on who Dax Novu is? Was he supposed to be the “father” of the original Monitor and Anti-Monitor from Crisis or is he supposed to be the Monitor of Crisis and if so how would that work?

  7. #37
    Spectacular Member Tenzel Kim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    According to the Book of Magic, Destiny was already there, but with primordial beings, I suppose the concept of time is relative
    Well, considering the fact that according to Justice League #22 there was a Multiverse before this one one could argue that time preceded this universe as well so Destiny could have been born to Time and Night at the time of creation.

    The Books of Magic's timing of the Fall of Lucifer though seem to be contradicted in Mike Carey's Lucifer. If we go by what was told in Lucifer then the fall would have happened quite a bit later than at the dawn of creation, at some point after Lilith left Eden.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Hunter View Post
    Having now read it, I agree and I like the way it recognises all the Crises (I'm also interested to see how Bendis will link to this in YOUNG JUSTICE). As a fan of thhe concept of the Multiverse I think this may be one of the best issues in a while and I like that it gives a relatively simplistic explanation for all the Crises
    It was well done. However, I have a question on Volthoom, Krona, Perpetua, and the Hand. Perpetua was obviously the FIRST hand, which created the multiverse, but from Green Lantern we are to understand that the hand which KRONA saw was the hand of Volthoom - himself a traveler from a different universe within the same multiverse, right? But I thought that Krona observing the hand CREATED the multiverse (in the original story), which seemed to conflict with the idea that Volthoom's universe within the multiverse already existed.

    So, here's a thought - if Perpetua was the FIRST hand, remember she was delegated to the Wall, and the multiverse got a "redo," (and therefore she was removed from the equation). Thus, there is no way Krona saw HER hand. Instead, I'm guessing the multiverse was recreated, but the Malthusians simply didn't KNOW about other universes. Then, Volthoom broke through using his lantern, and appeared in our universe, so that in fact the hand Krona saw was indeed that of Volthoom. Therefore it was the moment that the Malthusians became AWARE of the multiverse that Krona observed, but it wasn't the actual creation of the multiverse itself, right?

  9. #39
    Mighty Member krazijoe's Avatar
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    I am still waiting for Pandora...Though I feel like I will be waiting a long time...

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenzel Kim View Post
    Well, considering the fact that according to Justice League #22 there was a Multiverse before this one one could argue that time preceded this universe as well so Destiny could have been born to Time and Night at the time of creation.

    The Books of Magic's timing of the Fall of Lucifer though seem to be contradicted in Mike Carey's Lucifer. If we go by what was told in Lucifer then the fall would have happened quite a bit later than at the dawn of creation, at some point after Lilith left Eden.
    Since Carey's Lucifer fell under the Vertigo banner and Books of Magic was a pre-Vertigo story set firmly in the DCU, I tend to go with Gaiman's interpretation since his stuff is still referenced in the current DCU.

  11. #41
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    I've always sort of liked how the "Hand" is in flux, constantly a different hand. SHOCKER! Now it's Time Trapper's hand! Or SHOCKER! Now it's Doctor Manhattan!
    Where DOES Dr. Manhattan fit into all this? His tampering should have alerted a host of beings from the Linear Men to the Monitors.

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  12. #42
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    According to the Book of Magic, Destiny was already there, but with primordial beings, I suppose the concept of time is relative
    I don't remember that ipsis literis, but I believe that "Dawn of Time" was used figuratively there. Like "the beginning of the universe" or "the beginning of creation" or something to that effect, while in Sandman Overture we literally see Father Time as the father of the Endless siblings.

    Sure, trying to fit the Endless into proper DC cosmology is a somewhat pointless exercise anyway, but I think that since the Endless are "of the universe/multiverse" in a sense, I think it's fair to say that his existence is posterior to the Perpetua shenanigans.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  13. #43
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Where DOES Dr. Manhattan fit into all this? His tampering should have alerted a host of beings from the Linear Men to the Monitors.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    I guess the Monitors have bigger fish to fry at the moment with all the events in Justice League and all of that. And the linear men may not even exist due to Manhattans tampering?
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    I don't remember that ipsis literis, but I believe that "Dawn of Time" was used figuratively there. Like "the beginning of the universe" or "the beginning of creation" or something to that effect, while in Sandman Overture we literally see Father Time as the father of the Endless siblings.

    Sure, trying to fit the Endless into proper DC cosmology is a somewhat pointless exercise anyway, but I think that since the Endless are "of the universe/multiverse" in a sense, I think it's fair to say that his existence is posterior to the Perpetua shenanigans.
    I agree. When it comes to higher level beings operating billions of years before life on Earth, I think all options are on the table, because it's so far removed from human understanding, it doesn't really need to make sense anymore.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    I guess the Monitors have bigger fish to fry at the moment with all the events in Justice League and all of that. And the linear men may not even exist due to Manhattans tampering?
    I'm pretty sure the Linear Men are currently dead again. They die a lot.

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