JUSTICE LEAGUE # 22: after 34 years, the background of COIE finally makes sense

[Buried Alien]

I'm pretty sure the Linear Men are currently dead again. They die a lot.

They couldn't possibly die more often than Jean Grey.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Tenzel Kim]

Since Carey's Lucifer fell under the Vertigo banner and Books of Magic was a pre-Vertigo story set firmly in the DCU, I tend to go with Gaiman's interpretation since his stuff is still referenced in the current DCU.

Well, Sandman might have started pre-Vertigo but most of the series was Vertigo and that's being referenced as well. How do we decide which is and which isn't DCU if DC includes elements from both pre-Vertigo and Vertigo in their stories?

Not that this particular event matters much in regards to the origin of the Multiverse though. In any event it will be interesting to see what will be referenced in the future as the new Sandman Universe books all seem to disregard anything not done by Gaiman and in some cases even don't even line up with what was done by Gaiman.

[Tenzel Kim]

It was well done. However, I have a question on Volthoom, Krona, Perpetua, and the Hand. Perpetua was obviously the FIRST hand, which created the multiverse, but from Green Lantern we are to understand that the hand which KRONA saw was the hand of Volthoom - himself a traveler from a different universe within the same multiverse, right? But I thought that Krona observing the hand CREATED the multiverse (in the original story), which seemed to conflict with the idea that Volthoom's universe within the multiverse already existed.

So, here's a thought - if Perpetua was the FIRST hand, remember she was delegated to the Wall, and the multiverse got a "redo," (and therefore she was removed from the equation). Thus, there is no way Krona saw HER hand. Instead, I'm guessing the multiverse was recreated, but the Malthusians simply didn't KNOW about other universes. Then, Volthoom broke through using his lantern, and appeared in our universe, so that in fact the hand Krona saw was indeed that of Volthoom. Therefore it was the moment that the Malthusians became AWARE of the multiverse that Krona observed, but it wasn't the actual creation of the multiverse itself, right?

Interesting question. I remember the scene of the ring on the hand of creation at the beginning of the First Lantern storyline, but was it ever explained? Did we ever see any real follow-up to this, because his origins as revealed in Green Lanterns jumps the point of the hand of creation and only reveals his origin up until he showed up in the main universe and directly after, but the hand of creation is not seen at all. In fact based on Green Lanterns he didn't have a ring until after he had entered the main universe, so was the ring on the hand of creation ring actually just showing his attempt to remake the universe as seen in Green Lantern #20?

[Tenzel Kim]

But I thought that Krona observing the hand CREATED the multiverse (in the original story), which seemed to conflict with the idea that Volthoom's universe within the multiverse already existed.

Your thought on Volthoom made me remember the Lightsmiths and the Universe that came before what we know as the DC Universe. My first thought was that this tale could simply be put in the first Universe that Perpetua created, but just went back and re-read Relic's origin from Green Lantern #23.1 and the Source Wall was already present in that universe. So either we had Perpetua's universe, which was then replaced by the Lightsmiths' universe, which was then replaced by the DC Universe or it might be argued that Perpetua's universe did not cease to exist right away but was "allowed" an in-universe explanation for its demise which would be the Dimming. This might have been the Judges of the Source's final judgment for that universe. After all it seemed that all life was sucked into the darkness that poured out of the wall (which was said to be crumbling though, which doesn't quite fit the narrative). Any thoughts on this?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Well, Sandman might have started pre-Vertigo but most of the series was Vertigo and that's being referenced as well. How do we decide which is and which isn't DCU if DC includes elements from both pre-Vertigo and Vertigo in their stories?

Not that this particular event matters much in regards to the origin of the Multiverse though. In any event it will be interesting to see what will be referenced in the future as the new Sandman Universe books all seem to disregard anything not done by Gaiman and in some cases even don't even line up with what was done by Gaiman.

Yeah, continuity related to most of the Vertigo stuff is spotty at best, so I tend to treat it like Gaiman does and view it as a giant buffet that you can pick and choose from.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Your thought on Volthoom made me remember the Lightsmiths and the Universe that came before what we know as the DC Universe. My first thought was that this tale could simply be put in the first Universe that Perpetua created, but just went back and re-read Relic's origin from Green Lantern #23.1 and the Source Wall was already present in that universe. So either we had Perpetua's universe, which was then replaced by the Lightsmiths' universe, which was then replaced by the DC Universe or it might be argued that Perpetua's universe did not cease to exist right away but was "allowed" an in-universe explanation for its demise which would be the Dimming. This might have been the Judges of the Source's final judgment for that universe. After all it seemed that all life was sucked into the darkness that poured out of the wall (which was said to be crumbling though, which doesn't quite fit the narrative). Any thoughts on this?

I think everything related to Relic and the Lightsmiths is going to be completely ignored because no one liked that story. It's the New 52's version of that Imp that supposedly made Barry Allen into The Flash that was disregarded immediately.

Given how convoluted the nebulous "Dawn of Time" era of the DCU already is, I don't think anyone is in a rush to incorporate stories that no one will remember because they were pretty mediocre

[Bored at 3:00AM]

They couldn't possibly die more often than Jean Grey.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Serves her right naming herself after a mythological beast whose entire shtick is dying and coming back to life again.

Of course, that hasn't stopped Resurrection Man from never being resurrected again...

[Tenzel Kim]

I think everything related to Relic and the Lightsmiths is going to be completely ignored because no one liked that story. It's the New 52's version of that Imp that supposedly made Barry Allen into The Flash that was disregarded immediately.

Given how convoluted the nebulous "Dawn of Time" era of the DCU already is, I don't think anyone is in a rush to incorporate stories that no one will remember because they were pretty mediocre

You're probably right, but personally I like to try to reconcile stuff like this even if the stories weren't all that good. I think that is part of what attracts me to DC Universe continuity. That it is constantly evolving. Trying to figure out how everything MIGHT be connected is part of what makes it fun to me.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

You're probably right, but personally I like to try to reconcile stuff like this even if the stories weren't all that good. I think that is part of what attracts me to DC Universe continuity. That it is constantly evolving. Trying to figure out how everything MIGHT be connected is part of what makes it fun to me.

I am the same way, but as I've gotten older, I have decided to stop wasting my energy trying to explain away bad comics and have settled on the "just ignore them" route that served comics really, really well for many decades.

[Quasar's Bands]

You're probably right, but personally I like to try to reconcile stuff like this even if the stories weren't all that good. I think that is part of what attracts me to DC Universe continuity. That it is constantly evolving. Trying to figure out how everything MIGHT be connected is part of what makes it fun to me.

First of all, I liked the First Lantern concept. The Lightsmiths? Not so much. But here's a question - wasn't the Lightsmiths universe just a universe and not a multiverse? Isn't also possible that in fact that Lightsmiths universe might have been parallel, rather than preceding, our universe within the multiverse? That would make the most sense because, as you said, there was a Source Wall there as well.

With respect to the First Lantern's hand - I swear I remember in some Green Lantern-related book that we saw Kronos witnessing Volthoom's hand as it broke through the universes. In any case, if we are to believe that Kronos saw a hand AND that Perpetua's presence was entirely wiped from Kronos' universe's history - then that hand could NOT be hers, but also, there is no way that the multiverse was created BECAUSE of Kronos' interference. That's all been changed as a result of this origin. So, I think after this, it makes more sense to have:

1) Perpetua creates first multiverse
2) Source Judges stop her, wipe the slate clean, reboot the multiverse, including the birth of Monitor on moon of Oa and birth of Anti-Monitor in antimatter universe.
3) Time passes, Malthusians grow and develop
4) Meanwhile in another universe within the multiverse, Volthoom takes his lantern and heads out looking for a solution to their problem
5) He breaks through to OUR universe, Kronos witnesses this (including the hand) and the "secret" of the existence of the multiverse is revealed to the Malthusians.
6) Kronos is punished, oddly, for learning more about the fabric of time and space than the other Malthusians ever knew.
7) The rest, as they say, is history. Eventually, Volthoom finds his way back to HIS universe, and in trying to save his world and mother, he destroys it.

All of this begs a question about Ion and the Source Wall. He broke through it, right? He "saw the other side." But … is there another side NOW that it has been damaged/destroyed? What was there BEFORE its destruction that ION experienced, saw? Why isn't it there now? I presume Perpetua would know.

[Quasar's Bands]

First of all, I liked the First Lantern concept. The Lightsmiths? Not so much. But here's a question - wasn't the Lightsmiths universe just a universe and not a multiverse? Isn't also possible that in fact that Lightsmiths universe might have been parallel, rather than preceding, our universe within the multiverse? That would make the most sense because, as you said, there was a Source Wall there as well.

With respect to the First Lantern's hand - I swear I remember in some Green Lantern-related book that we saw Kronos witnessing Volthoom's hand as it broke through the universes. In any case, if we are to believe that Kronos saw a hand AND that Perpetua's presence was entirely wiped from Kronos' universe's history - then that hand could NOT be hers, but also, there is no way that the multiverse was created BECAUSE of Kronos' interference. That's all been changed as a result of this origin. So, I think after this, it makes more sense to have:

1) Perpetua creates first multiverse
2) Source Judges stop her, wipe the slate clean, reboot the multiverse, including the birth of Monitor on moon of Oa and birth of Anti-Monitor in antimatter universe.
3) Time passes, Malthusians grow and develop
4) Meanwhile in another universe within the multiverse, Volthoom takes his lantern and heads out looking for a solution to their problem
5) He breaks through to OUR universe, Kronos witnesses this (including the hand) and the "secret" of the existence of the multiverse is revealed to the Malthusians.
6) Kronos is punished, oddly, for learning more about the fabric of time and space than the other Malthusians ever knew.
7) The rest, as they say, is history. Eventually, Volthoom finds his way back to HIS universe, and in trying to save his world and mother, he destroys it.

All of this begs a question about Ion and the Source Wall. He broke through it, right? He "saw the other side." But … is there another side NOW that it has been damaged/destroyed? What was there BEFORE its destruction that ION experienced, saw? Why isn't it there now? I presume Perpetua would know.

For that matter, didn't he also come back with the knowledge of the anti-life equation - all derived from the other side of the Source Wall? Now that the wall is broken, does everyone have access to the "pool" of emotional energy AND the anti-life equation?

[BohemiaDrinker]

It's the New 52's version of that Imp that supposedly made Barry Allen into The Flash that was disregarded immediately.

I'd take "Mopee, the bureaucrat IMP" oiver "Barry Allen is the Speed Foce and his parents are DEAAAAAAAAAD" any day of the week. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[K. Jones]

I think everything related to Relic and the Lightsmiths is going to be completely ignored because no one liked that story. It's the New 52's version of that Imp that supposedly made Barry Allen into The Flash that was disregarded immediately.

Given how convoluted the nebulous "Dawn of Time" era of the DCU already is, I don't think anyone is in a rush to incorporate stories that no one will remember because they were pretty mediocre

I tend to agree it'll be ignored but it certainly is easily quantified as "one of those earlier universe attempts", as I believe might be any other ones that might have been in previous DCU storylines.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'd take "Mopee, the bureaucrat IMP" oiver "Barry Allen is the Speed Foce and his parents are DEAAAAAAAAAD" any day of the week. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think Barry Allen is The Speed Force is another story that everyone has collectively decided to ignore.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I think Barry Allen is The Speed Force is another story that everyone has collectively decided to ignore.

Not enough for me.

It must be burned with the blazing hot hellfire of a thousand Suns!