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  1. #46
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Sure.

    That would be why they actually came up with an indictment on folks for lying.

    That said...

    If it was a normal old investigation of "X" that wasn't going anywhere, they aren't just going to be able to set up a "Y" situation where the "Shooting" scenario takes place.

    They would either have something on "X", or have to drop it. Far as I can tell, M ueller didn't really have anything on "X".
    The investigation as about Trump obstruting justice ad conspiracy with Russian. Plenty of Xs. I guess you just read the Barr version of the report.
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  2. #47
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    The investigation as about Trump obstruting justice ad conspiracy with Russian. Plenty of Xs. I guess you just read the Barr version of the report.
    Jeez...

    In any normal investigation, you'd need to have evidence of specific crime "X" just to start an investigation.

    Far as I know, the report flat out shoots down stuff like Cohen being in whatever European country to take part in this "Conspiracy" charge that never materialized. Never mind ruling out an indictment on Don Jr.

    Heck, no "Conspiracy" charges turned up down the chain.

    No regular citizen would still be getting investigated with what they turned up. It's the same thing as Clinton before being impeached. No regular investigation would get the kind of leeway that those two did.
    Last edited by numberthirty; 04-20-2019 at 07:21 PM.

  3. #48
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Jeez...

    In any normal investigation, you'd need to have evidence of specific crime "X" just to start an investigation.

    Far as I know, the report flat out shoots down stuff like Cohen being in whatever European country to take part in this "Conspiracy" charge that never materialized. Never mind ruling out an indictment on Don Jr.

    Heck, no "Conspiracy" charges turned up down the chain.

    No regular citizen would still be getting investigated with what they turned up. It's the same thing as Clinton before being impeached. No regular investigation would get the kind of leeway that those two did.
    The report coroborates the meeting with the Russians. And there was evidence of obstruction. The Fed Intel Agencies sad the Russians were working to help Trump, and he accepted their help.

    Sorry you feel your guy was unfairly attacked by a witch hunt, but that reading is as accurate as Trumps and Barrs.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  4. #49
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    The report coroborates the meeting with the Russians. And there was evidence of obstruction. The Fed Intel Agencies sad the Russians were working to help Trump, and he accepted their help.

    Sorry you feel your guy was unfairly attacked by a witch hunt, but that reading is as accurate as Trumps and Barrs.
    That's you talking.

    As for the actual reality of the thing, it's still nothing like the "Shot A Gun..." instance from earlier. Special Federal investigations get leeway that a regular old investigation never would.

    As for "The Report Says A Meeting With Russians Happened...", that's not a conspiracy. Something they should have to hang their heads over? Absolutely.

    The sort of conspiracy folks were saying happened? Don't think that they turned up any actual proof of that. They certainly never charged any of the people who Justice Department policy would not have stopped them from indicting with a "Conspiracy" charge. There is probably a perfectly logical reason that they did not.

    As for "Obstruction...", see above.

    It's an instance where it could only happen in the very narrow example of a Federal investigation where they have the sort of leeway that they need to investigate. In the earlier example, it probably never gets to that.

  5. #50
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Not true.

    Martha Stewart was convicted of obstruction because they thought there might be insider trading. If there is enough to start an investigation, obstruction can then ensue.

    The meeting at the trump Tower and the ties numerous Trump officials had with foreign countries was enough to start an investigation. That Trump then tried to obstruct it is what is illegal, even if the very, very narrow definition of collusion could not be applied. (They did in fact, coordinate with the Russians)

    I am not arguing the "shot a gun" scenerio you hate. I am talking the facts on the ground in this case.

    Your argument is that if they ignored all the interplay between the Russians and Trumps and didn't investigate, he wouldn't have been able to obstruct.
    That doesn't fly. I can't muster the sympathy you have for Trump.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Jeez...

    In any normal investigation, you'd need to have evidence of specific crime "X" just to start an investigation.

    Far as I know, the report flat out shoots down stuff like Cohen being in whatever European country to take part in this "Conspiracy" charge that never materialized. Never mind ruling out an indictment on Don Jr.

    Heck, no "Conspiracy" charges turned up down the chain.

    No regular citizen would still be getting investigated with what they turned up. It's the same thing as Clinton before being impeached. No regular investigation would get the kind of leeway that those two did.
    No you don't. You just need reasonable cause to start an investigation. You don't need evidence for a crime to start an investigation because most crimes could not be investigated if you did.

    And to that end, it was suspected if not known that there was a Russian influence on the Trump campaign. That leads to the Muller investigation because while there was no direct evidence of a crime in the case of Russia helping a knowing Trump get elected, in conspiracy you cannot guarantee there will be any sort of smoking gun. Conspiracy does not mean you will have direct evidence of a crime which is why an investigation is needed. An investigation is done to prove ones guilt or innocence and while Trump may be fine for now, during that period of investigation you had criminal charges levied against people who worked with and for Donald Trump. Even if he wasn't an accomplice or the bad actor itself, during the investigation it raises many red flags which is very much why this is/was necessary.
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  7. #52
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    All this excuse making and covering for Trump reminds me of something I saw on Facebook a year or two ago:

    ”There are two kinds of Trump supporters: billionaires and idiots. Check your bank account to see which one you are.”

    Why would anyone with two working brain cells to rub together have the back of a loathsome shitstain like Trump is a mystery to me.
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  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    All this excuse making and covering for Trump reminds me of something I saw on Facebook a year or two ago:

    ”There are two kinds of Trump supporters: billionaires and idiots. Check your bank account to see which one you are.”

    Why would anyone with two working brain cells to rub together have the back of a loathsome shitstain like Trump is a mystery to me.
    Did we forget to mention that his charity got shut down for being an overall fraud and typically not giving money to anyone else unless it was to buy portraits of himself?
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Majestic View Post
    But they weren't successful with Bill Clinton. It was a "nice try ya sore losers" type situation. If the Dems manage to get a sitting president out due to alleged misconduct it would be the end of the world. It would be 1000 times worse than when Hilary was talking about "deplorables" and Democrats were joking about "flyover" states. Every living breathing Republican would make sure to cast his vote in the next election because he would feel that there basically was a coup d'etat.

    Going for a putsch will bite them in the arse, wait, strategize and make sure you win the next election.

    Exactly. I don't think people are remembering how popular that whole episode made Clinton and how it got all his supporters to rally around him. Nor that it made the Republicans look incredibly petty and put them in a position of weakness.

    You really only do something like this if you can get some tangible benefit. There is no tangible benefit here. He will not be removed from office. But even in the off chance that you do, that's years of political capital the Democrats just conceded.

    A far better move is to just wait and hold the Republicans and Trump accountable in the next election

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Oh I see. Okay.

    Lying to investigators or trying to stop an investigation, no matter the origin is a clear crime. One Mueller thinks Trump committed. He just doesn't have the power to indict according to the DOJ.
    I think the problem is ultimately optics here. The Republicans are going to play up "the Democrats shouted collusion for two years, and they found no collusion, so now they want to impeach him for obstruction for a crime they made up that he was cleared on".

    Yes we should be able to hold the President to a high standard, but we both know it's a game of politics. You will never get the Senate Republicans to oust him. So the best case scenario is off the table. So now it's just whether you want to make a point or not.

  11. #56
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Sure.

    That would be why they actually came up with an indictment on folks for lying.

    That said...

    If it was a normal old investigation of "X" that wasn't going anywhere, they aren't just going to be able to set up a "Y" situation where the "Shooting" scenario takes place.

    They would either have something on "X", or have to drop it. Far as I can tell, Mueller didn't really have anything on "X".
    Actually, the DoJ operates under the rule that in order to indict a sitting president, Congress has to intervene and transform him into a former president.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  12. #57
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    I found it interesting seeing Keely Ann trying to spin it as this is all Obama's fault. And Rudy G...I'm not sure I even get what he was trying to say on Meet The Press today.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Actually, the DoJ operates under the rule that in order to indict a sitting president, Congress has to intervene and transform him into a former president.
    That's the bigger problem. There's hoops to jump through and ultimately before you even get to actually indict him you like have to go through many court proceedings to get a definitive ruling on that matter. By which point the only thing you won is the ability to go through another drawn out court process. By that point, optics can shift and the political will might not be there.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    That's the bigger problem. There's hoops to jump through and ultimately before you even get to actually indict him you like have to go through many court proceedings to get a definitive ruling on that matter. By which point the only thing you won is the ability to go through another drawn out court process. By that point, optics can shift and the political will might not be there.
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  15. #60
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I found it interesting seeing Keely Ann trying to spin it as this is all Obama's fault. And Rudy G...I'm not sure I even get what he was trying to say on Meet The Press today.
    Kellyanne of Green Goebbels is at it again? Color me shocked.
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