Lets talk about Jon on Earth-3

[Superlad93]

Ummmm, no. None of that works at all. If you've been gone months and no one is picking up the phone, you would want to go home to make sure you're parents are okay.

You're parents aren't Superman though. Issue 8 and 9 establishes that Jon's view on his father are almost deific in nature. It's often forgotten that he grew around 9 to 10 years of his life thinking of Superman the same way that the people of Earth and the wider galaxy think of Superman: Mr. Fix-it, and damn near infallible. And it was cool as hell when he first learned that it was his dad, and he'd have powers too, but then, as he articulated in issue 8, the implication that he'll have to come through with the same level of infallible ability that his dad does weighs on him. He continues to think of his dad as the capital-G Greatest even while stuck on Earth-3, as he still assumed he was coming to get him for years.

And Kids Jon's age don't go months without contacting their parents. There's absolutely no excuse that explains that omission away, even protecting Jor-El's feelings, which is bull. You can try to explain it away all you want, but it really doesn't make a damn bit of sense. No kid with a stable and healthy relationship with their parents goes months without talking to them.

But Jon did, and he gave a specific reason for it. He said that he and his grandfather would get so engrossed in trying to keep galactic peace that he'd lose track and get distracted. You argue that no normal kid would become so engrossed in whatever they're doing, and forget to call home for what they thought was months, but it can then be pointed out that no kid is Superboy. They're no one else getting engrossed in galactic conflicts, traveling space, and losing track of days because they keep changing solar systems. And no other kid has the inherent peace of mind of knowing that their dad is Superman.

But it's not like I don't have big glaring issues with this and other aspects of these last 4 issues. The idea that we can move through multiple solar systems, across dimensions, and 6 years with an major character beyond their origin is hard as hell to swallow whole. While, using the limited clues, one can postulate the actions the character too during this time, it's not at all satisfactory. Getting into the mind of Jon during this time would be invaluable.

I've recently relistened to the most recent Word Balloon interview with Bendis, and he brings up the big reunion with Damian, and how it's gonna be such an event. He also said that going forward Jon will be in every issue of Superman. That got me thinking about a thread started on here about Jon's new scar, and I'm now thinking/desperately hoping that we're either getting some sort of mini or maxi (now that Super Sons is coming to an end), or subplot in the main Superman book where along with just hanging out with him, Jon tells Damian all of the stuff he thinks his parents freak out about (more). You know, the stuff you tell your best friend. At that very least that would give us more issues to spend on that huge amount of time.

[Sam]

You're parents aren't Superman though. Issue 8 and 9 establishes that Jon's view on his father are almost deific in nature. It's often forgotten that he grew around 9 to 10 years of his life thinking of Superman the same way that the people of Earth and the wider galaxy think of Superman: Mr. Fix-it, and damn near infallible. And it was cool as hell when he first learned that it was his dad, and he'd have powers too, but then, as he articulated in issue 8, the implication that he'll have to come through with the same level of infallible ability that his dad does weighs on him. He continues to think of his dad as the capital-G Greatest even while stuck on Earth-3, as he still assumed he was coming to get him for years.



But Jon did, and he gave a specific reason for it. He said that he and his grandfather would get so engrossed in trying to keep galactic peace that he'd lose track and get distracted. You argue that no normal kid would become so engrossed in whatever they're doing, and forget to call home for what they thought was months, but it can then be pointed out that no kid is Superboy. They're no one else getting engrossed in galactic conflicts, traveling space, and losing track of days because they keep changing solar systems. And no other kid has the inherent peace of mind of knowing that their dad is Superman.

But it's not like I don't have big glaring issues with this and other aspects of these last 4 issues. The idea that we can move through multiple solar systems, across dimensions, and 6 years with an major character beyond their origin is hard as hell to swallow whole. While, using the limited clues, one can postulate the actions the character too during this time, it's not at all satisfactory. Getting into the mind of Jon during this time would be invaluable.

I've recently relistened to the most recent Word Balloon interview with Bendis, and he brings up the big reunion with Damian, and how it's gonna be such an event. He also said that going forward Jon will be in every issue of Superman. That got me thinking about a thread started on here about Jon's new scar, and I'm now thinking/desperately hoping that we're either getting some sort of mini or maxi (now that Super Sons is coming to an end), or subplot in the main Superman book where along with just hanging out with him, Jon tells Damian all of the stuff he thinks his parents freak out about (more). You know, the stuff you tell your best friend. At that very least that would give us more issues to spend on that huge amount of time.

When I was 10, my dad was Superman. It's that way for a lot of kids. We idolize our parents. Doesn't mean we don't worry when we can't reach them and it doesn't mean we don't want to be in contact with them. Likewise, tons of kids see themselves as a Superboy, superheroes who can do anything.

Superman and Superboy can't be code for "does things that don't make sense to the rest of us." Frankly, if the reasoning behind character motivations and decisions for Clark and Jon are "Well, he's Superman/Superboy", then the reasoning really doesn't work. They have to make sense as characters, otherwise they don't feel authentic. A pre-teen kid with a strong relationship with his parents would not want to go days or weeks or months without contacting home. We even see that Jon DOES want to go home, yet no mention is made of just making a call to talk with his parents. That's just sloppy writing, which makes sense, because these 4 issues were chock full of sloppy writing, which you somewhat acknowledge.

[Superlad93]

When I was 10, my dad was Superman. It's that way for a lot of kids. We idolize our parents.

That's really sweet, but your dad didn't fly, and wasn't the most powerful being on the planet with a team of super pals and acquaintances the galaxy over. You also didn't have action figures of your dad, watch him save the whole world as this friendly god before you knew it was your dad. Jon has the same sort of faith in Superman that a devoted resident of the DCU has. He says as much to Jor-El when he talks about his dad being "the greatest" and "The Greatest." That's why he was so worried about having to be That Guy some day because he couldn't fathom that being possible for anyone who wasn't his dad.

That's just sloppy writing, which makes sense, because these 4 issues were chock full of sloppy writing, which you somewhat acknowledge.

Just to be clear though, what I acknowledge is that I need more than 4 issue. Conceptually and in regards to the isolated moments, I'm totally there for it, but due to the length of time I really feel we're warranted more focus, and a greater exploration of the clear character arc that was implied.

[Sam]

That's really sweet, but your dad didn't fly, and wasn't the most powerful being on the planet with a team of super pals and acquaintances the galaxy over. You also didn't have action figures of your dad, watch him save the whole world as this friendly god before you knew it was your dad. Jon has the same sort of faith in Superman that a devoted resident of the DCU has. He says as much to Jor-El when he talks about his dad being "the greatest" and "The Greatest." That's why he was so worried about having to be That Guy some day because he couldn't fathom that being possible for anyone who wasn't his dad.

It really doesn't matter. Every good dad is the greatest. Every good dad seems invincible, but you still worry and you still want to talk to them when you're scared. One would want to try and talk to their dad (or Mom) IF YOU ARE TEN AND HAVE BEEN AWAY FROM HIM FOR WEEKS. Clark being Superman or Jon being Superboy does not make them exceptions to that idea. Pretending otherwise is really just trying to justify bad writing. Does Jon even know that Lois got home safe? How can he not want to know that? The way Bendis has been writing Jon defies logic and reasoning.

[Superlad93]

It really doesn't matter. Every good dad is the greatest. Every good dad seems invincible, but you still worry and you still want to talk to them when you're scared.

I see what you're saying, but clearly not how the text meant it. Jon says "my dad....he's the greatest. But, he's the greatest. A lot--a lot of people are going to be wanting a lot of things from me. The already do because of him." He's talking about his father being the greatest in as literal a way as you can get with such wording. The "greatest" you're talking about is coming from the POV of a child with a world that only spans like two blocks. Jon's comment and his worry come from the fact that a whole world and parts of a galaxy buy into the hype, and he and they have seen him do the impossible.

That's the whole reason why Jon's even worried about his future and the expectations that will be placed on him. They are set against a person who meets and exceeds them. And again that's why in issue 9 Jon, like most people in the DCU, are just assuming Superman will save him no matter where he is. But his time in Earth-3 went a bit to show Jon that his dad wasn't as all-knowing and omnipresent as he assumed. He tempered his unreasonable expectations of his dad and himself while still feeling proud of who his dad (and mom) is, and who he was becoming. That's all coming from the starting point that Jon literally thinks his dad is the greatest in a not 5 year old sort of way.

[Sam]

I see what you're saying, but clearly not how the text meant it. Jon says "my dad....he's the greatest. But, he's the greatest. A lot--a lot of people are going to be wanting a lot of things from me. The already do because of him." He's talking about his father being the greatest in as literal a way as you can get with such wording. The "greatest" you're talking about is coming from the POV of a child with a world that only spans like two blocks. Jon's comment and his worry come from the fact that a whole world and parts of a galaxy buy into the hype, and he and they have seen him do the impossible.

That's the whole reason why Jon's even worried about his future and the expectations that will be placed on him. They are set against a person who meets and exceeds them. And again that's why in issue 9 Jon, like most people in the DCU, are just assuming Superman will save him no matter where he is. But his time in Earth-3 went a bit to show Jon that his dad wasn't as all-knowing and omnipresent as he assumed. He tempered his unreasonable expectations of his dad and himself while still feeling proud of who his dad (and mom) is, and who he was becoming. That's all coming from the starting point that Jon literally thinks his dad is the greatest in a not 5 year old sort of way.

Right, but quoting Bendis dialogue and citing Bendis’s view is not an effective way of proving Jon’s line of thinking works when the very premise of my argument is that Bendis is not writing Jon in an authentic and relatable way. It actually proves my point. Bendis doesn’t get Jon.

Jon wouldn’t want to go weeks without contacting his Dad and Mom.

[Blue22]

Right, but quoting Bendis dialogue and citing Bendis’s view is not an effective way of proving Jon’s line of thinking works when the very premise of my argument is that Bendis is not writing Jon in an authentic and relatable way. It actually proves my point. Bendis doesn’t get Jon.

Jon wouldn’t want to go weeks without contacting his Dad and Mom.

Hell, he probably shouldn't have been as alright as he was with his mom leaving so soon either. I know Clark shouldn't have been okay with that....

[Superlad93]

Right, but quoting Bendis dialogue and citing Bendis’s view is not an effective way of proving Jon’s line of thinking works when the very premise of my argument is that Bendis is not writing Jon in an authentic and relatable way. It actually proves my point. Bendis doesn’t get Jon.

Speaking on if something is relatable or is a dicey game. It's largely subjective at the end of the day. I found myself find aspects of Jon's time in space of all places quite relatable, but there were portions of the Tomasi era that rang oddly untrue to me.

What I was speaking about and replying to was the conjecture on the why he may not have lost it if he didn't get hold of his dad. Those answers, regardless of if you agree with the authenticity of them or not, is something more easily traced. You feeling satisfactions with the answer is something else that's more personal to you.

[Sam]

Speaking on if something is relatable or is a dicey game. It's largely subjective at the end of the day. I found myself find aspects of Jon's time in space of all places quite relatable, but there were portions of the Tomasi era that rang oddly untrue to me.

What I was speaking about and replying to was the conjecture on the why he may not have lost it if he didn't get hold of his dad. Those answers, regardless of if you agree with the authenticity of them or not, is something more easily traced. You feeling satisfactions with the answer is something else that's more personal to you.

It's not really a personal thing though. A lot of people have a huge issue with what's been going on with Jon recently. You can claim subjectivity all you want. But when tons of people have that same subjective viewpoint, it can't be dismissed out of hand. In fact, the more uncommon viewpoint based on this thread appears to be that these four issues worked storytelling-wise.

[Superlad93]

It's not really a personal thing though. A lot of people have a huge issue with what's been going on with Jon recently. You can claim subjectivity all you want. But when tons of people have that same subjective viewpoint, it can't be dismissed out of hand. In fact, the more uncommon viewpoint based on this thread appears to be that these four issues worked storytelling-wise.

What? C'mon dude, that's just ridiculous. What you're describing is an opinion that you happen to share with a group (sometimes not even for the same reason). That is subjective. That is taste. Now we're honestly just trialing off into the void with this conversation.

[Sam]

What? C'mon dude, that's just ridiculous. What you're describing is an opinion that you happen to share with a group (sometimes not even for the same reason). That is subjective. That is taste. Now we're honestly just trialing off into the void with this conversation.

You’re the one who brought up subjectivity. You can’t dismiss my point as subjective and not expect me to push back on that.

[Superlad93]

You’re the one who brought up subjectivity. You can’t dismiss my point as subjective and not expect me to push back on that.

I'm not dismissing any of your points. I'm saying that it doesn't sound very productive for me to discuss how one can and can not relate to Jon as he is now because that's an inherently subjective conversation that would never end. So I side stepped that while acknowledging it.

[Sam]

I'm not dismissing any of your points. I'm saying that it doesn't sound very productive for me to discuss how one can and can not relate to Jon as he is now because that's an inherently subjective conversation that would never end. So I side stepped that while acknowledging it.

This entire thread is founded on inherently subjective conversation, but you're probably right that continuing this argument wouldn't be productive.

[Superlad93]

This entire thread is founded on inherently subjective conversation, but you're probably right that continuing this argument wouldn't be productive.

Of course it is, as are most threads. However, discussing if a character is relatable to you and then attempting to argue against someone who thinks the opposite seems fruitless due to just how subjective it is. It's like discussing what version of Superman is the most relatable. That's highly personal. I for one find the silver age Superman to be quite relatable. Wouldn't say he's the most, but I think he functions as very relatable. Immediately there's disconnect there based on what any of us deem to be relatable. The word is inherently personal because it's about being able to see yourself or some recognizable aspect of the human condition in the character. That's a wide net that takes all shapes.

[Sam]

Of course it is, as are most threads. However, discussing if a character is relatable to you and then attempting to argue against someone who thinks the opposite seems fruitless due to just how subjective it is. It's like discussing what version of Superman is the most relatable. That's highly personal. I for one find the silver age Superman to be quite relatable. Wouldn't say he's the most, but I think he functions as very relatable. Immediately there's disconnect there based on what any of us deem to be relatable. The word is inherently personal because it's about being able to see yourself or some recognizable aspect of the human condition in the character. That's a wide net that takes all shapes.

Right, but if it's all subjective, ending the argument specifically while citing the subjectivity of my current point came off as dismissive. It may not be the way you intended it, but it was the way I read it. Insinuating there are levels of subjectivity now is kind of producing the same read from me. If that was not your intent, that's fine. I'm just explaining where I'm coming from.