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  1. #61
    Mighty Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I for one hope that he never puts the Ronin costume back on. He's at his worst when he's trying to be someone else.
    Agreed. Even when Clint became Goliath, it just never felt right (IMHO).

  2. #62
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I kind of feel like they would have had a trade out at least...
    True that! That wouldn't be any work at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I for one hope that he never puts the Ronin costume back on. He's at his worst when he's trying to be someone else.
    I dug it but the whole post-Civil War New Avengers stuff is my jam so it's to be expected.
    I was actually hoping they'd just give him a sword as a back-up weapon again even when running around as Hawkeye. It's not like they haven't done that before when McCann wrote Hawkeye & Mockingbird.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    You think this Clint cucking is bad? Falcon no longer exists! Why, movie synergy? Why aren't you lifting up all my boys?
    I wasn't even aware. Man, that blows.
    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    Agreed. Even when Clint became Goliath, it just never felt right (IMHO).
    I mean I agree on Goliath but that happened way before I was born and it's sometimes hard to read older stuff in general.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

    Matt's Stuff [Blog]: Fire Emblem Three Houses Campaigns & Characters - R A N K E D

  3. #63
    Mighty Member mreddie's Avatar
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    I think if we don't get anything by SDCC, it'll be a waste.

    Needs to have a good team behind it though.

  4. #64
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mreddie View Post
    I think if we don't get anything by SDCC, it'll be a waste.

    Needs to have a good team behind it though.
    Mhm. Doesn't look like we are getting much in the way of movie synergy as it is which is kinda refreshing but unfortunate for some characters.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

    Matt's Stuff [Blog]: Fire Emblem Three Houses Campaigns & Characters - R A N K E D

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    I dug it but the whole post-Civil War New Avengers stuff is my jam so it's to be expected.
    Right. And that's an insurmountable road block in the discussion unfortunately. We like two completely different and mutually exclusive characters. I respect your opinion. But I could not disagree with it more. :shrugs:

    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    I was actually hoping they'd just give him a sword as a back-up weapon again even when running around as Hawkeye. It's not like they haven't done that before when McCann wrote Hawkeye & Mockingbird.
    Why? What does the sword have to do with marksmanship? There's no overlap in the skill set. Clint was dropped as a student by the original Swordsman. And that's when he discovered that he's practically superhuman as an archer. Bendis did not get the character. But he's not the only one. They keep trying to make him into someone else. He's not a samurai. He's not Bullseye (outside of that ridiculous Ultimates depiction). Clint's a gunslinger who uses a bow because he values life and because he's just that accurate. People will bend over backwards to justify the Ronin stuff even knowing that the identity was originally set up for Matt Murdock (someone who has a background in ninjitsu at least). he had to kill Clint to stick him in that costume/"fix him." And there was nothing broken about him. Do you want Rogers to carry around a backup sword? Because it makes just as much sense imo.

  6. #66
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Right. And that's an insurmountable road block in the discussion unfortunately. We like two completely different and mutually exclusive characters. I respect your opinion. But I could not disagree with it more. :shrugs:



    Why? What does the sword have to do with marksmanship? There's no overlap in the skill set. Clint was dropped as a student by the original Swordsman. And that's when he discovered that he's practically superhuman as an archer. Bendis did not get the character. But he's not the only one. They keep trying to make him into someone else. He's not a samurai. He's not Bullseye (outside of that ridiculous Ultimates depiction). Clint's a gunslinger who uses a bow because he values life and because he's just that accurate. People will bend over backwards to justify the Ronin stuff even knowing that the identity was originally set up for Matt Murdock (someone who has a background in ninjitsu at least). he had to kill Clint to stick him in that costume/"fix him." And there was nothing broken about him. Do you want Rogers to carry around a backup sword? Because it makes just as much sense imo.
    Why ever not? Part of what makes Comic Book Characters so charming is the fact that they and their legacies grow over the years.
    The Clint Barton who first joined the Avengers was an Ex Criminal and Archer.
    The Clint Barton who lead the resistance against Cap's Hydra was a n ex-criminal, Archer ,a Veteran Avenger, former leader of a shitload of super hero teams, honorary member of the Justice League ( ;p ), ex lover of all the cool spy ladies, mentor of a whole new Hawkeye and yes also a former Samurai/Ninja dude which he's been for years.

    Why throw all of that away when you can embrace it instead? None of that takes away from what else he is.

    Compared to your Batman's and Spiderman's Clint hasn't changed all that much anyway from his beginnings.

    Also: I like swords (well maybe Katanas not as much but I take what I can get) as much as bows so that's a rad combination.
    Never hurt Legolas to have his two shirts words in lord of the rings. You don't have to make it the new main focus.
    Last edited by Matternativ; 05-27-2019 at 11:49 AM.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

    Matt's Stuff [Blog]: Fire Emblem Three Houses Campaigns & Characters - R A N K E D

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    Why ever not? Part of what makes Comic Book Characters so charming is the fact that they and their legacies grow over the years.
    The Clint Barton who first joined the Avengers was an Ex Criminal and Archer.
    The Clint Barton who lead the resistance against Cap's Hydra was a n ex-criminal, Archer ,a Veteran Avenger, former leader of a shitload of super hero teams, honorary member of the Justice League ( ;p ), ex lover of all the cool spy ladies, mentor of a whole new Hawkeye and yes also a former Samurai/Ninja dude which he's been for years.

    Why throw all of that away when you can embrace it instead? None of that takes away from what else he is.

    Compared to your Batman's and Spiderman's Clint hasn't changed all that much anyway from his beginnings.

    Also: I like swords (well maybe Katanas not as much but I take what I can get) as much as bows so that's a rad combination.
    Never hurt Legolas to have his two shirts words in lord of the rings. You don't have to make it the new main focus.
    Clint isn't an elf. He didn't grow up with elves. You've chosen random over organic. why doesn't mockingbird carry a backup sledgehammer?

  8. #68
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Clint isn't an elf. He didn't grow up with elves. You've chosen random over organic. why doesn't mockingbird carry a backup sledgehammer?
    But Legolas ist an Archer First and foremost.
    That's the point. Not his ears.


    If we had years worth of Mockingbird working as a Construction Worker just like we had years worth of Clint being Ronin then your comparison might even make sense.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

    Matt's Stuff [Blog]: Fire Emblem Three Houses Campaigns & Characters - R A N K E D

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    But Legolas ist an Archer First and foremost.
    That's the point. Not his ears.
    the elves are archers and sword users first and foremost. it's part of their culture. that's the point. Clint's a westerner. he was introduced to archery in his formative years. him growing up to use a bow and arrow is natural. it had long become part of his lifestyle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    If we had years worth of Mockingbird working as a Construction Worker just like we had years worth of Clint being Ronin then your comparison might even make sense.
    if we had been shown years of Clint practicing with a katana (or even interest in bladed weapons) then we wouldn't be talking. the point is that neither was set up organically. Mockingbird suddenly using a sledgehammer is no different than Clint suddenly showing up as a swordsman. it's even less unrealistic because you don't need much training to use a sledgehammer.

  10. #70
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    the elves are archers and sword users first and foremost. it's part of their culture. that's the point. Clint's a westerner. he was introduced to archery in his formative years. him growing up to use a bow and arrow is natural. it had long become part of his lifestyle.



    if we had been shown years of Clint practicing with a katana (or even interest in bladed weapons) then we wouldn't be talking. the point is that neither was set up organically. Mockingbird suddenly using a sledgehammer is no different than Clint suddenly showing up as a swordsman. it's even less unrealistic because you don't need much training to use a sledgehammer.
    It's part of their culture because they don't rely on bows only because melee too happens.

    Clint's lifestyle is battling Super Villains and Aliens every other day and while it was a retcon that he's proficient with swords, just hands and other melee oriented things it's hardly one that lacks sense.
    I mean: Are there better choices than a sword to bring along for Melee Combat? Yes. But we are talking about a character who brings a Bow to outer space to fights elders of the universe and stuff like that so that's not really an argument.

    Bobbi wielding a Sledgehammer would only really makes sense if she'd use it to crack some armours since historically that's what they were used for if anything (and I doubt heavy Armour in the 616 Universe is comparable to medieval plate armour but that's just me) Other than that they are tools and not combat weapons.
    Besides she already carries a trademark Melee weapon.
    It would make more sense for her to upgrade her ranged arsenal if you wanna go that route. Case in point: She does use guns, and not just her trademark staff.
    And that's even without a many year long stint as a Gunslinger.

    To draw a line under this:
    I am not implying he should go full "Ninja" again (fun fact: Ninja's weren't necessarily fighters at all but back to topic) but giving him a back-up sword (or other Melee weapon, I liked how his bow turned into a staff in the MCU's version of Civil War for example) would be a subjectively cool way to acknowledge something that's been canon for like 15 or so years now without taking anthing away from him and there is no real objective argument against it, neither in character nor from a story perspective.

    I see why you might not like it and that's fine and dandy. I don't like Hawkguy (anymore) but I too have to deal with the fact that that has been his direction for years now and it's always gonna be part of his history and should be acknowledged going forward.
    In fact you could have a lot of fun with developing him in a different direction just by using it as a jumping point for new character development.

    Now if a writer came up with the explanation that Clint doesn't wanna use a sword or anything because it reminds him of darker days that would be a valid in character reason to leave it as it is but so far the only instance of them reappearing implied the opposite.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

    Matt's Stuff [Blog]: Fire Emblem Three Houses Campaigns & Characters - R A N K E D

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    It's part of their culture because they don't rely on bows only because melee too happens.

    Clint's lifestyle is battling Super Villains and Aliens every other day and while it was a retcon that he's proficient with swords, just hands and other melee oriented things it's hardly one that lacks sense.
    I mean: Are there better choices than a sword to bring along for Melee Combat? Yes.
    i'll stop you there. because we literally won't agree beyond that. i already said that i'd be fine with a tactical or hunting knife. that doesn't require me to stretch my imagination very far. but that Ronin identity is just too much. it's what a writer who didn't like Hawkeye would do imo.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    It's part of their culture because they don't rely on bows only because melee too happens.

    Clint's lifestyle is battling Super Villains and Aliens every other day and while it was a retcon that he's proficient with swords, just hands and other melee oriented things it's hardly one that lacks sense.
    I mean: Are there better choices than a sword to bring along for Melee Combat? Yes. But we are talking about a character who brings a Bow to outer space to fights elders of the universe and stuff like that so that's not really an argument.

    Bobbi wielding a Sledgehammer would only really makes sense if she'd use it to crack some armours since historically that's what they were used for if anything (and I doubt heavy Armour in the 616 Universe is comparable to medieval plate armour but that's just me) Other than that they are tools and not combat weapons.
    Besides she already carries a trademark Melee weapon.
    It would make more sense for her to upgrade her ranged arsenal if you wanna go that route. Case in point: She does use guns, and not just her trademark staff.
    And that's even without a many year long stint as a Gunslinger.
    Bobbi, prior to being Mockingbird, was a secret agent. there is nothing strange or unconventional about her using a firearm. she had no established reluctance to kill. and she doesn't become a gunslinger by using a gun. guns are a staple of western culture. Clint does not have a background as a SHIELD operative or a masterless samurai. that's why it's weird to me that he chose to stick with the ronin identity. it's why it's weird that he came to lead the Secret Avengers (if only for movie synnergy). Clint has a very strong personality. the bow was part of his image as a showboat marksman. Bendis changed his personality and his image. subsequent writers followed that path. i personally think that it was a bad thing for the character. i'm not asking anyone to agree with me. just stating my opinion as a fan of the character. they could have introduced this stuff earlier in his costumed adventurer career. but it didn't happen.

  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member Winterboy's Avatar
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    Barton by Hardman.

    hardman hawkeye.jpg
    "Who wouldn't go out with the Black Widow? I'd strangle a litter of kittens for one dinner with her!"
    Adrian Toomes aka the Vulture


    "Natasha Romanoff, A.K.A. Black Widow - ex-KGB, formerly with S.H.I.E.L.D...Probably the brains of this operation.I have followed her career, and she has been consistently UNDERRATED."

  14. #74
    WAKANDA FOREVER! Falcon16's Avatar
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    First of all, I'd like you to see this SNL sketch I find hilarious


    And then this clip of Hawkeye from the 90s Iron Man cartoon...

    IDK why, I just think his voice is funny there. I know he's injured but does he have to sound like Miss Piggy if she smoked 2 packs a day?

  15. #75
    Wily Veteran cc008's Avatar
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    I remember that SNL skit. Loved it when it was live. Love it now.

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