Avengers: Endgame Spoilers

[David Walton]

I think her fear was based on the fact that Hulk wanted to use time travel to remove the gems from before a time that they were required/used, and hw that might go wrong

Also, Hulk was creating an alternate timeline by removing them, meaning that if he brought them to his reality and never returned, the Ancient One's divergent timeline would be left unprotected. Presumably Dormammu would have conquered that Earth, if something else didn't first. I think the Ancient One's exchange with Hulk was very loosely inspired by Hickman's "Incursion" buildup to SECRET WARS, with different realities potentially pitted against each other for survival. The Ancient One was saying that what was good for Hulk's reality wasn't necessarily good for hers.

[Dumdumdumdumdum]

Captain Marvel arrives after the snap. If you watched the post credit scene in Captain Marvel, you remember. Rocket knew the Guardians at least went to Knowhere first. And he should at least know about Titan. Perhaps he helped Captain Marvel track down his friends by pointing her in the right direction, and by proxy Tony was found. I dunno, but it didn't seem like a huge hurdle to me.

I'd assume the Ryder had a distress beacon.

[snark^]

I stand corrected. I tend to confuse the two [Norse/Olympian] at times.

How? One is tzatziki, the other lutefisk.

[JKtheMac]

What am I missing here...




So where does the "snap" take place? Does Thanos2/Big Battle/Snap jump to 2023 on the timeline once he time traveled back over?

Sorry? I don’t understand the question? What do you mean by travel back over. Yes the IM snap happens in 2023 then Cap goes back and closes the branches. There are only actually 4 branches. But once Steve time travels there are none. 2023 still has a purple patch that represents the way it was changed by Thanos2.

The Thanos1 snap still happens as we remember it.

Loki stealing the Tesseract / Space Stone won’t create a branch in and of itself because he belongs to that timeline and he can’t time travel with it.

[JKtheMac]

I think Tony just snapped Thanos and his army out of existence and it didn't have anything to do with what timeline they were from or if they belonged.

Pretty much this. I think Tony was well aware that he needed to keep the command simple. Anything too complex could backfire. He basically wished Thanos and his retinue into oblivion.

[JKtheMac]

Gamora was part of that army or atleast she came as part of it at first. But Tony knew of Gamora. They had the whole why Gamora scene and all that and he spent time alone with Nebula do maybe he saved past Gamora. He cant bring present Gamora back since Nat couldnt be brought back Hulk tried

I am pretty sure they can be brought back, but it won’t be as simple as just wishing them back. Someone may have to go in and get them.

[Iron_Legion87]

And she doesn't even really get to interact with the other's in many cool ways when she is there either.

I think it came down to the fact that Bri actually shot all her scenes for Endgame before Captain Marvel was actually shot. I don’t think Joe and Anthony really knew how popular or hyped captain marvel would be.

[Derek Metaltron]

Loki from the alternate timeline where he escaped after the Battle of New York is presumably alive.

It is interesting to question how altered that timeline is now. We can assume that Steve managed to successfully return both the Mind Stone and the Time Stone to their rightful places there but there’s no way of knowing if he could successfully return the Space Stone since alternate Loki grabbed it without doing something which would affect the original Time Heist team there. Plus the fact that alternate Sitwell and Rumlow would be assuming that their Steve was secretly HYDRA, which might result in all sorts of complications and misassumptions.

I assume Tony managed to effectively undo the alternate GOTG timeline with Thanos and both the 1970 SHIELD and Asgard timelines weren’t affected too greatly, but there’s a good chance the alternative Battle of New York timeline could return via alternate Loki, maybe even being their version of the Ultimate Universe. And give the first generation actors an excuse to return for a one off film.

[BeastieRunner]

Cap put everything back. Mjonir would have to go back to past Thor with the reality stone.

Why would he have to put the hammer back? I guess when he stabs Jane with the Aether again, he could've just left the hammer, too. Nevermind, figured it out!

Yeah I tried thinking about this but it's not worth it. Old man Steve made no sense but it hit emotionally and that's what matters. And the movie acknowledges time travel is nonsense earlier on.

The Ancient One warned of dire consequences if the stones aren't returned back to right after they are taken.

They only reason Steve was able to come back to the future is because he properly put all the stones back, closing all the loops created.

Steve eradicated Thanos and his army from the divergent 2014 timeline. Only divergent Gamora survived from that timeline. Nebula killed divergent Nebula which is why she doesn't die.

Had Steve returned the Space stone to where Loki stole it again, he would not have be able to age forward in the current timeline and I suspect other issues would've been created in the current timeline. Steve returned it to the 1970s, closing that loop.

Divergent Loki from 2012 is the only surviving timeline from those created. The rest are all closed. When the Space stone goes back to the 1970s, the current timeline is restored because Loki didn't get the stone back. So I'm assuming either a)Steve stopped Tony and Scott from their FUBAR and/or dealt with Loki, or b) creating that divergent timeline was the only way to get the Space stone.

It's also a clever way to create a new timeline for some "What If" type stories.

Also, who knows if Tony not only brought everyone back but eradicated those branched timelines? Maybe that is what killed him? We're going to see some fallout in future films.

I have a hunch that some of what is contrived as a plot hole was left open for a reason (like Divergent Loki might be the ruler of his timeline and that's what his story is about). Aspects from Secret Wars, Cosmic Cube, Kang, Onslaught, Infinity War and Crusade, Annihilation are all in play here. Hell, Wanda could try to bring Vision back and create House of M and it results in mutants being brought into the MCU. I think it was purposeful, not lazy.

I think that open timeline from 2012 was intentional ...

[David Walton]

I think it came down to the fact that Bri actually shot all her scenes for Endgame before Captain Marvel was actually shot. I don’t think Joe and Anthony really knew how popular or hyped captain marvel would be.

I think it's more that Infinity War/Endgame's primary goal was to close out the original Avenger's story arcs. I felt like every single character had a few great moments in IW/EG, even if they didn't get much of a spotlight.

Captain Marvel saved Tony and Nebula from dying in outer space, won Thor's approval, went on the mission to "The Garden," and held her own against Thanos until he used the Power Stone. Those aren't exactly small moments, and she's about to become the face of the MCU for the foreseeable future.

[Divine Spark]

I think it came down to the fact that Bri actually shot all her scenes for Endgame before Captain Marvel was actually shot. I don’t think Joe and Anthony really knew how popular or hyped captain marvel would be.

Marvel/Disney knew it would be a hit hence the massive market push.

[Iron_Legion87]

I think it's more that Infinity War/Endgame's primary goal was to close out the original Avenger's story arcs. I felt like every single character had a few great moments in IW/EG, even if they didn't get much of a spotlight.

Captain Marvel saved Tony and Nebula from dying in outer space, won Thor's approval, went on the mission to "The Garden," and held her own against Thanos until he used the Power Stone. Those aren't exactly small moments, and she's about to become the face of the MCU for the foreseeable future.

I agree with you there. I feel like it was best to focus on the original Avengers in Endgame since the new faces will be leading the charge for the foreseeable future Spidey, Captain Marvel, Black Panther, Guardians of The Galaxy, and Dr Strange.

[Hypestyle]

enjoyable movie overall, no objections, though I would have loved for a real rematch with Hulk and Thanos.
I wonder what happened to Betty Ross, and General Ross. And the Abomination.
No new villains in the less populated Earth. Hmm.

[GindyPosts]

He didnt tell them they had to do anything. They said they felt like a leper for not liking the MCU. He suggested they could go to forum that shared they're opinion. That's solid advice if they are really feeling that uncomfortable. By doing such they would be joining a echochamber. This forum while like the general public is heavily in the favor of the MCU does have the spectrum represented. We got people who straight hate the MCU(But think every DCEU movies are perfect story telling), we got people who have genuine personal reasons for not liking the MCU, we got people who like some MCU movies hate others, we got people who like most but not all, and then we have the majority on the end who think most of the MCU is pretty great, and finaly we have a couple knuckle heads who think every MCU movie is the best movie ever( but every DC movie ever is a dumpster fire. But yea someone who hates every MCU across the spectrum, they are gonna have a hard time finding a place where they feel like they are in the majority. But it was the original poster who felt uncomfortable about being in the minority with they're opinion. They're are plenty of people in here who dislike atleast some MCU movies and as long as they arent acting trollish everyone gets along just fine. If everyone just agreed on everything and there was no debate these forums would be boring. But again is was the original poster who was bothered.

The only real place I could go to that would likely have me feel like my opinion would be in the majority that doesn't involve going into the "dark web" would be a sub-Reddit, which are the true echo chambers, and to be honest, I do not like Reddit at all. Various reasons that would derail the topic and I just feel even more uncomfortable diving into.

The unfortunate thing about what you're saying is that, after seeing several MCU films that soured my taste on the franchise (Iron Man, GOTG, Avengers, Ant-Man), I then feel like my opinion on not liking the MCU is violated for actually liking the Justice League in a non-ironic way, which the internet has rallied around to hate in both its original form and for all the yokels who whine about wanting "the Snyder Cut", which would likely be a bunch of storyboards and in-house shots if it even did exist. Yeah, Man of Steel is an absolute garbage film and BvS is stupid crap, but Justice League once Snyder was given the boot was salvaged into something that worked, warts and all, though people were pre-dispositioned to hate it due to how BvS was, and the recent "NOT DCEU 'cuz DCEU is DEAD, GUYS" films have shown that DC movies will provide an alternative to people who don't want the formulaic and predictable that Disney and its hot dog factory policy will squirt out.

Thanos was still behind various events in the MCU one way or another. There are still thousands or even millions of people that died. Black Widow, Vision, Quicksilver, Iron Man ect. The invasion of New York still happened which played a part in what happened with the Netflix Defenders characters.

I wouldn't say Thanos accomplished nothing. The snap was undone and he was killed but that was always going to happen. Undoing the snap didn't come without a cost.

Thanos was always going to be killed. Thanos was not portrayed as being the kind of character that would just quit trying to wipe out sentient life in the universe as he believed it was his destiny and his life's work.

Yes Thanos got killed early but that was because he was in a extremely weakened state from destroying the stones and he was ambushed by the avengers. It took a army of Avengers to battle Thanos at the end and even then they only just beat him. The big three at near peak powers got beat down and he sent Captain Marvel into orbit with the power stone.

I'm not trying to truly downplay it and dumb it down to "Thanos is dead = Thanos accomplished nothing", even though it clearly sounds like it, but it just goes back to the thing that bothers me the most about the MCU, and why I'm not a fan of the franchise as a whole. The comics don't usually kill off the villains at the end of the story unless it's a villain that really, really doesn't matter (and honestly, even then it bothers me... I think death just bugs me in fiction when it comes to antagonists since its too easy and there was a very unpleasant time in my life where I had bloodlust where I watched things and wanted the worst to happen to not only the character but the actor playing the role... and I have gotten help for my hypersensitivity, with one part of the treatment being to be very careful with my media intake), and often have it so that the villain is left to see their plans undone or are forced to go into hiding and scheme once more, which once DCEU did away with that finality their movies (Steppenwolf, Ocean Master, and Dr. Sivana aren't slain in JU, Aquaman, and Shazam! respectively, though in the case of Steppenwolf, it's likely Darkseid would be none too pleased) and adopted a more traditional comic book layout to its storytelling, it felt like a more realistic universe that there's always a constant threat lurking than the MCU where the heroes slay the villain and move on to the next villain since they merely adopted a traditional movie storytelling format and just decided to make billions off of it.

It also presents a problem because, even though we're trying to establish a multiverse, we clearly established that the timeline where Thanos triumphs is erased from the multiverse because "happy" ending. I put "happy" in quotations because of the loss of some key characters, but you get the point. The elimination of this "bad ending" universe is part of where I got this argument about Thanos's plans ultimately amounting to nothing since there will be no remnant of that plan in existence and, of course, no remnants of himself.

I dunno. I'm clearly not adding to this thread since I have established I don't like this franchise, don't have interest in this film in particular, and have exposed that I have some serious mental issues, which for classic CBR members, is familiar territory.

[JKtheMac]

Timeline_During_Battle.jpg

This is how I see the timeline in Endgame.

Top: during the battle we have four branches in the past and one of those branches sends a divergent Thanos, here called Thanos2 through a quantum tunnel, into the battle in 2024.

Bottom: Once Steve has gone back and replaced each stone the branches all collapse. because he stays in the past, he makes changes to the timeline. I expect Loki will also make changes to the timeline, and of course Thanos2 made changes to the timeline. Each of these will continue to have an effect on things from that point on. These are not branches because the stones remain in their correct places.