Avengers: Endgame Spoilers

[5Eyes]

Booooo. I won't dispute them. But boooo.

My question: why did people saying Cap and Peggy got to live out their lives in the prime timeline bug you?

Because it defies the rules they placed for MCU time travel , now if they state somewhere in the movie that it can happen that way, then it wouldn't bug me so much, but the premise in time travel is you can't affect the Prime time line if you make changes, and anyone who said that Main Cap lives his life with Peggy in the Prime time line , has not given a good explanation on how that would work..

[5Eyes]

That still doesn’t make sense. If you want to argue it was an alternate timeline, then old Steve shouldn’t have showed up in what was effectively the main timeline. And if you want to argue that he returned with Pym particles, it gets even more convoluted. It’s looking more like the script writers and the Russo’s weren’t on the same page

That is what it is said, he returned from an alternate time line , it would be more as you state it more "convoluted" if you can affect the main time line, why would the main movie then be obtaining the infinity stone from alternate time line when you can just travel back before Thanos snap and make the correction there.. One of the the main premise that they went out of their way to explain - in MCU time travel you cannot affect the main time line by traveling back in time..

[5Eyes]

There's also the idea that Cap would sit around allowing events to unfold that he could prevent, which doesn't make sense in your version. Nor does Sharon keeping it a secret yet still kissing him doesn't make sense. And if she didn't know who her "Uncle" really was, then she'd have wondered why her Aunt Peggy's husband wasn't at her funeral.

I agree , If Old Cap somehow lived in the main timeline, you would have to accept the premise he didn't try to help his Best buddy Bucky from being tortured and becoming Winter Soldier, or failing that didn't stop the death of the Starks, or warn Shield it has been Hi-jacked by Hydra, and many other things.. most of all prevent the Snap from happening at all.. plus you would also have to accept old cap would not try to prevent Main Cap from having an incestuous relationship with his niece..

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

There's also the idea that Cap would sit around allowing events to unfold that he could prevent, which doesn't make sense in your version. Nor does Sharon keeping it a secret yet still kissing him doesn't make sense. And if she didn't know who her "Uncle" really was, then she'd have wondered why her Aunt Peggy's husband wasn't at her funeral.

The stuff you say doesn't make sense are just small things you don't want to accept as plausible. The Cap that went back in time was a Cap who had a career fighting during WWII for about 3 years. Then was an Avenger from 2012-2019. Then had 5 years of trying to put the world back together after Thanos before his final mission. Captain America had basically had 15 year career of being a hero. It's not really ridiculous that he just wanted to retire and put the shield down. That Captain America knows that the world is generally going to be okay and wouldn't be looking to jepoardize the timeline. And that's true NO MATTER what timeline he is. He simply cannot be an active Captain America in any of these timelines because it throws off the entire Thanos plot.

As far as the funeral. Steve by that point in time would have been like 7 years younger than he was in Endgame. He still would be a very old man who nobody would have ever recognized as Captain America. Espeically with the man known as Captain America being in plain sight at the funeral. So there's no reason to think he wasn't there. Again it's also very possible that Steve just stayed in hiding and chilled with Peggy at her house and in some unassumming small town where nobody would question it. The only iffy thing is the Sharon kiss. Which either you have to accept she didn't know and never put two and two together (but that also rests alot on how much she was involved with Peggy Carter, Peggy was in Shield and involved in the army, it's really not unrealistic to think they barely had contact until much later in life when Sharon followed in her footsteps and by that point Steve was old enough to not recognize. Or you can assume that she did know, kept it under wraps because in the grandscheme of things the much younger Captain America was only going to be around for like 13 years (8 pre Snap, and who knows if Sharon survived that) and was going back and that she kissed him anyways. Which you could either pass off as grief between her Aunt's death and Steve being hunted or just her giving into an attraction knowing that he'd leave anyways and she'd never have it held against her because the older Cap in the past couldn't admonish her for something she didn't do yet (and she'd never have to answer to Peggy).

I find any of that far easier to stomach compared to this idea that it was a seperate timeline. The first biggest problem is that it's clearly implied that Cap just never returned and aged naturally to meet his friends at the precise time he left. It's convoluted to think he bothered to leave his timeline years later only to come back for a simple explanation (there's literally no reason at any point in the entire history of his life he couldn't just return much younger to tell his friends what he was doing, if not even just comeback immediately and tell them he was going to retire). And if we go with the idea that he lived out a totally seperate timeline as Cap from the time he returned, then he was risking the fate of the world changing a timeline that he knew required a precise series of events intact to overcome the threat of Thanos. Which is inanely irresponisble.

To me the latter is so much bigger and causes more problems than Cap just being in the same timeline quietly living a secluded life where he could relax as a retired hero with the woman he loved and getting over the fact that he was content knowing the world was okay and that his niece who may or may not have had a relationship with kissed a much younger version of him than the one she knew.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

That is what it is said, he returned from an alternate time line , it would be more as you state it more "convoluted" if you can affect the main time line, why would the main movie then be obtaining the infinity stone from alternate time line when you can just travel back before Thanos snap and make the correction there.. One of the the main premise that they went out of their way to explain - in MCU time travel you cannot affect the main time line by traveling back in time..

It's stated that there was a primary timeline. By removing the stones, the Ancient One said that they were creating branching timelines that were likely doomed because the timeline needed to work out the way it does in the primary one to survive. The point of placing the stones back was to create a loop. The past was change slightly by the Avengers being there and getting the stones out and back in, but nothing in principle changed for the timestream. Just little deviances.

Steve Rodgers going back does not change anything in the timeline. No matter what timeline you are in, Steve Rodgers still has to fight in WWII and get frozen. He still has to be in the future to fight with the Avengers and his existence is instrumental in defeating Thanos. There is no timeline where that wouldn't be the case.

So no matter whether Steve being with Peggy happened in the primary timeline or an alternate one EVERY SINGLE THING that happened From Avengers to Avengers Endgame still needs to take place. Because if that is NOT the case, then you basically just doomed the world. So essentially it going from the main timeline to an alternate one makes it a completely needless change. Steve still has to be in the past in secret or else literally the entire Thanos conflict is in jepoardy (ancient retired Captain America is not going to help much there). And it also creates a situation where now an infinite amount of timelines were creaed because at the end of every one of these alternate timelines will be a the actual Cap from that timeline going to the past and creating another alternate timeline.

And beyond the only difference in principle is that in the primary timeline Peggy Carer lives her whole life thinking Steve was dead until her last 5 years. That's the only major difference it creates.

So yeah I'm going to go with the screenwriters take that Cap just quietly went into the past and lived a secret retired life and it was a small enough difference that it created a closed loop in the timestream.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I agree , If Old Cap somehow lived in the main timeline, you would have to accept the premise he didn't try to help his Best buddy Bucky from being tortured and becoming Winter Soldier, or failing that didn't stop the death of the Starks, or warn Shield it has been Hi-jacked by Hydra, and many other things.. most of all prevent the Snap from happening at all.. plus you would also have to accept old cap would not try to prevent Main Cap from having an incestuous relationship with his niece..

In yet this is all in a universe where Dr. Strange worked out every possible sequence of events (and you have to assume those events included timetravel because it was required based off his plan) and decided there was exactly one single outcome of possibilities that ended in the world being saved and a Captain America running around in the past wouldn't do incredible damage to that sequence of events just by virtue of being so connected to so many pieces of it. Like just being a living legend in the vicinity of his friend Howard Stark and Hank Pym (who was also around) could jepoadize two key characters being born. Or that by stopping Bucky he disrupts the entirity of everything that happened from Civil War on. Or that a past version of Cap existing doesn't create a litany of problems when that actual timelines Cap returns from the Ice.

Basically for this alternate timeline to exist you have to leave the fate of the world completely up to chance and quite frankly based on what is presented, the world is pretty much doomed at that point.

Again going to go with the people that actually wrote the script and assume the directors just got confused by time travel.

[5Eyes]

It's stated that there was a primary timeline. By removing the stones, the Ancient One said that they were creating branching timelines that were likely doomed because the timeline needed to work out the way it does in the primary one to survive. The point of placing the stones back was to create a loop. The past was change slightly by the Avengers being there and getting the stones out and back in, but nothing in principle changed for the timestream. Just little deviances.

Steve Rodgers going back does not change anything in the timeline. No matter what timeline you are in, Steve Rodgers still has to fight in WWII and get frozen. He still has to be in the future to fight with the Avengers and his existence is instrumental in defeating Thanos. There is no timeline where that wouldn't be the case.

So no matter whether Steve being with Peggy happened in the primary timeline or an alternate one EVERY SINGLE THING that happened From Avengers to Avengers Endgame still needs to take place. Because if that is NOT the case, then you basically just doomed the world. So essentially it going from the main timeline to an alternate one makes it a completely needless change. Steve still has to be in the past in secret or else literally the entire Thanos conflict is in jepoardy (ancient retired Captain America is not going to help much there). And it also creates a situation where now an infinite amount of timelines were creaed because at the end of every one of these alternate timelines will be a the actual Cap from that timeline going to the past and creating another alternate timeline.

And beyond the only difference in principle is that in the primary timeline Peggy Carer lives her whole life thinking Steve was dead until her last 5 years. That's the only major difference it creates.

So yeah I'm going to go with the screenwriters take that Cap just quietly went into the past and lived a secret retired life and it was a small enough difference that it created a closed loop in the timestream.

No where in that conversation between the Ancient one and Banner states you can live in the Main past time line or that her reality is the main time line


First I will quote what banner said before meeting the Ancient One:

Banner Explanation on time

- If you travel to the Past , that past becomes your future and your former present becomes the past, Which can't now be changed by your new future...

Now the Conversation between the Ancient one and Banner


Ancient one:
The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one, not so much. In this new branch reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world would be over-run and millions would suffer

Banner:
No, but we can erase it. Because once we are done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken. So, chronologically, in that reality, it never left.

She and Banner was talking about her reality .. no where does it state that her time line was the main time line just states that a dark branch of reality would be created\erased..

I can see .. I'm not going to convince you no matter what nor are you gonna ever convince me that he live in the Main time line past or if he did, not preventing anything bad from happening, that would be messed up on so many levels, nor does the ancient one explanation in reality contradict or change the original assessment of time travel as explain by Banner ... so I will call this a deadlock..

[DrNewGod]

Because it defies the rules they placed for MCU time travel , now if they state somewhere in the movie that it can happen that way, then it wouldn't bug me so much, but the premise in time travel is you can't affect the Prime time line if you make changes, and anyone who said that Main Cap lives his life with Peggy in the Prime time line , has not given a good explanation on how that would work..

The Russos probably made a mistake in offering a definitive answer. That's not because it doesn't correspond with my favorite answer, but because (IMO) leaving a few questions for audience the answer for themselves makes for a better story.

But then, I haven't made a ridiculously successful series of films, so YMMV.

[80sbaby]

THANK YOU, 5Eyes! That's what I've been trying to tell him. The conversation between Banner and the AO is pretty specific in it's language ("MY reality", "THAT reality", It's OWN timeline".)

Not to mention Banner's own explanation with War Machine and Ant-Man.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

No where in that conversation between the Ancient one and Banner states you can live in the Main past time line or that her reality is the main time line


First I will quote what banner said before meeting the Ancient One:

Banner Explanation on time

- If you travel to the Past , that past becomes your future and your former present becomes the past, Which can't now be changed by your new future...

Now the Conversation between the Ancient one and Banner


Ancient one:
The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one, not so much. In this new branch reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world would be over-run and millions would suffer

Banner:
No, but we can erase it. Because once we are done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken. So, chronologically, in that reality, it never left.

She and Banner was talking about her reality .. no where does it state that her time line was the main time line just states that a dark branch of reality would be created\erased..

I can see .. I'm not going to convince you no matter what nor are you gonna ever convince me that he live in the Main time line past or if he did, not preventing anything bad from happening, that would be messed up on so many levels, nor does the ancient one explanation in reality contradict or change the original assessment of time travel as explain by Banner ... so I will call this a deadlock..

She says specifically removing the stones creates a split and also refers to it as “her new reality”.

Then they visualize this by showing a single time stream and the infinity stones removal causing branches which are put back in place when Hulk returns them. Back to one single time stream..

Again unless that is the first and only timestream, Cap going back either

1. Doom’s the world because it destroys the single calculated chain of events that can save it.

2. Causes infinite timelines because there will be a Cap who goes forward in time to fight with the Avengers before going back to a new timeline to be with Peggy.

Again the people who wrote the script and worked out the conventions of this don’t agree with your take. They said they wrote a closed loop single timeline

[5Eyes]

She says specifically removing the stones creates a split and also refers to it as “her new reality”.

Then they visualize this by showing a single time stream and the infinity stones removal causing branches which are put back in place when Hulk returns them. Back to one single time stream..

Again unless that is the first and only timestream, Cap going back either

1. Doom’s the world because it destroys the single calculated chain of events that can save it.

2. Causes infinite timelines because there will be a Cap who goes forward in time to fight with the Avengers before going back to a new timeline to be with Peggy.

Again the people who wrote the script and worked out the conventions of this don’t agree with your take. They said they wrote a closed loop single timeline

She never states its a single time stream- first them going back in Time came from the idea that they are going to an alternate timeline and nothing stated but the ancient one change that , 2nd they already made small changes in the past timeline the didn't affect the main timeline, and they made some big one - killing Thanos of the Past didn't affect the main time line at all , also both Gamora and Loki of Past is walking around and didn't make changes .. and yet nothing you said state still does not contradict the original premise on time travel stated by Banner - "Changing the past doesn't change the future", in fact any of the the other things they did in past has not affected the Main time line...

[LordMikel]

Time Travel.jpg

I tried to confirm the quote, but I couldn't find it, so I hope this is correct.

[5Eyes]

Time Travel.jpg

I tried to confirm the quote, but I couldn't find it, so I hope this is correct.

That must have been from the end credit scene , I really wanted to stay but it was a long movie and I needed to goto the restroom

[Midvillian1322]

She never states its a single time stream- first them going back in Time came from the idea that they are going to an alternate timeline and nothing stated but the ancient one change that , 2nd they already made small changes in the past timeline the didn't affect the main timeline, and they made some big one - killing Thanos of the Past didn't affect the main time line at all , also both Gamora and Loki of Past is walking around and didn't make changes .. and yet nothing you said state still does not contradict the original premise on time travel stated by Banner - "Changing the past doesn't change the future", in fact any of the the other things they did in past has not affected the Main time line...

Yea logic leads you there but people either want it to make no sense or are putting way too much faith in what the writers said when the directors and the movie say the exact opposite. Feige is the only person who's explanation would overrule The Russos imo just because hes the one person involved who has a higher say in the narrative going forward. And let's say All the story ideas that theRussos gave Marcus and Mcfeely to adapt and apparently they came up with alot. Let's just say none were time travel aspects and the writers single handedly came up with that. The directors can then still come in and change things weather it's in editing or just tweaking scene while they're being filmed. Also the Russos were heavily involved in the direction if the story. So I'm perplexed by people saying the Writers opinion over rules the directors. Cause again even if the writers wrote it all and intended it one way. The Russos have final say and could change it as they see fit. So they're opinion plus the movie itself tells me you cant change your past. Just create new timelines.

[DrNewGod]

Yea logic leads you there but people either want it to make no sense or are putting way too much faith in what the writers said when the directors and the movie say the exact opposite. Feige is the only person who's explanation would overrule The Russos imo just because hes the one person involved who has a higher say in the narrative going forward. And let's say All the story ideas that theRussos gave Marcus and Mcfeely to adapt and apparently they came up with alot. Let's just say none were time travel aspects and the writers single handedly came up with that. The directors can then still come in and change things weather it's in editing or just tweaking scene while they're being filmed. Also the Russos were heavily involved in the direction if the story. So I'm perplexed by people saying the Writers opinion over rules the directors. Cause again even if the writers wrote it all and intended it one way. The Russos have final say and could change it as they see fit. So they're opinion plus the movie itself tells me you cant change your past. Just create new timelines.

It does crack me up, the amount of time and screaming we fans invest in the precise workings of fake science extrapolated from bleeding-edge-yet-to-be-empirically-tested scientific conceptualization.