Avengers: Endgame Spoilers

[CRaymond]

No, every time they travel back they are in an alternative parallel past, not their own. The Ancient One and Hulk say as much that itÂ’s impossible for them to go to their own specific past.

Mmmm not sure that's true.

Granted, it DID get a bit wibbly wobbly timey-wimey there... but honestly it's pretty easy to wrap your head around it IF

1. Loki's 2012 escape is accounted for in his Disney+ series, and THAT stone gets taken back to SHEILD of 2012 by someone, eventually. Otherwise, there's an alt dimension with no Space Stone.

2. Tony's snap was largely dramatic, and the "dusting" was just HOW the Army was sent back to 2014. This would include Nebula 2014 being repaired, ALL their memories being wiped, and Tony leaving knowledge of himself in Thanos's mind. I could see Tony doing that, he's through AND sarcastic. Otherwise, there's an alt dimension with no Thanos. HOWEVER, this doesn't account for Gamora 2014 that we might find running around in the future of the MCU.

What we don't know, even now, is how Thanos knew about Stark. We can assume Thanos learned about Stark in 2014, but that Thanos ended up dusted in 2019. WOBBLY!

3. Steve's adventures in the past are funded by extraordinary amounts of Pym particles and equipped with a shrunken toy Benatar. Given enough Pym, Stark, Banner, and Guardians tech, Steve could EASILY accomplish the return trip(s) to all stone locations, AND find his way to Peggy in 1950.

Of the above, I think Option 2 is the wobbliest, and could result in an alt dimension problem if we discover Gamora was spared and Thanos 2014 was wiped out.

[Buried Alien]

No, every time they travel back they are in an alternative parallel past, not their own. The Ancient One and Hulk say as much that it’s impossible for them to go to their own specific past. So Steve could never go back to his own past and settle down with Peggy because that already happened and cannot be changed. All he could do and almost certainly did was travel to an alternative 1945 and be with that version of Peggy, and then return to his own universe (where he was frozen in ice until 2012) to meet Sam and Bucky.

A headache I know but I am just following the rules of time travel they set up in the film.

Where's the Flash when you need him?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kaijudo]

A couple quick thoughts on the whole time-travel thing:

1. Include me in the group of people who believe Steve was always Peggy's husband and that returning to that time only fulfilled his destiny along the main timeline, rather than create a divergent timeline based upon his arrival. It plays into the lack of reveal of Peggy's husband, her years of looking at Steve's picture longingly can be interpreted as her missing him while she's at a new post (like Los Angeles in AGENT CARTER, assuming Steve arrived before the events of that show), and it could also explain why Sharon would be an ideal candidate to babysit the young Steve who awoke in the future. Yes, this makes the single kiss Steve and Sharon kissed a bit more than awkward, but like her aunt Sharon is a spy and can keep her trap shut and roll with the odd objectionable thing for the sake of the greater good of a mission.

2. As far as 2014 Gamora goes, when Tony dusted Thanos's forces, Gamora had already moved on from Thanos and his mission in her heart, well before traveling to the present, so I suspect the Gauntlet realized this on some level and spared her.

3. I just realized that it's a shame Marvel's primary time-traveler is a villain like Kang. If they had a Booster Gold-like hero whose primary motif is time travel, this film could've been a perfect launching point for that character getting his or her own film series, as well as a way to introduce new characters not tied to the present like Agents of Atlas, the Western heroes, and the like.

[kingaliencracker]

A couple quick thoughts on the whole time-travel thing:

1. Include me in the group of people who believe Steve was always Peggy's husband and that returning to that time only fulfilled his destiny along the main timeline, rather than create a divergent timeline based upon his arrival. It plays into the lack of reveal of Peggy's husband, her years of looking at Steve's picture longingly can be interpreted as her missing him while she's at a new post (like Los Angeles in AGENT CARTER, assuming Steve arrived before the events of that show), and it could also explain why Sharon would be an ideal candidate to babysit the young Steve who awoke in the future. Yes, this makes the single kiss Steve and Sharon kissed a bit more than awkward, but like her aunt Sharon is a spy and can keep her trap shut and roll with the odd objectionable thing for the sake of the greater good of a mission.

2. As far as 2014 Gamora goes, when Tony dusted Thanos's forces, Gamora had already moved on from Thanos and his mission in her heart, well before traveling to the present, so I suspect the Gauntlet realized this on some level and spared her.

3. I just realized that it's a shame Marvel's primary time-traveler is a villain like Kang. If they had a Booster Gold-like hero whose primary motif is time travel, this film could've been a perfect launching point for that character getting his or her own film series, as well as a way to introduce new characters not tied to the present like Agents of Atlas, the Western heroes, and the like.

Dr. Doom is also a time traveler.

Just saying...

[Baggie_Saiyan]

First two acts were good the final act was too boring for me. Just an epic battle. The first two acts were full of character moments last was all about scale etc.

But my god this film had wayyyyy too many plot contrivances it was unreal:

Marvel outta nowhere saves Stark, literally got no info, how does she know him? How does she know where the hell he is in the vastness of space?

Rat. Like come one.

Gauntlet needed to be made to withold the stones but nah stark tech can take care of it! And the glove can also expand to fit Hulk too!

And the banner Hulk thing was just what the hell, again mentioned in one sentence and we just have to accept that happened.

Captain Marvel. Barely appears in the film unless it is convenient.

Nebula thing. I didn't buy the same frequency BS, hated that was the way Thanos knew.

If this was any other CBM it would be getting crapped on but epic final battle and the endgame means it'll be a let off. I thought TDKR was bad with convenience but holy hell a film with a 3hr run time barely explains anything. And they did Widow dirty all she got was Banner throwing something off a boat!

Also I hate Falcon, like and he is gonna be the new Cap? Piss off. The dude looks like he is trying way to hard to act cool.

This in some respects was more disappointing then the Captain Marvel film.

6/10.

[ZeroBG82]

Nowhere in those conversations was it ever explicitly or even implicitly stated that when they traveled back in time, they weren't traveling back to their own timeline, just that if they altered anything significantly then it would create a divergent reality. If they weren't traveling back to their own time or reality, then why bother returning the stones or trying to be convert in taking them?

Because the risk is that without the stones, the new divergent realities will all suffer horrific tragedy and death. The Ancient One is referring explicitly to the Time Stone, which the sorcerers need to defend the Earth from the likes of Dormommu. Without it, the new reality created by it's absence would be slaughtered by evil demons or lord knows what else. The Avengers aren't looking to save themselves at somebody else's expense. (Imagine that sequel. Where people from the divergent reality come to ours to murder the Avengers because sure, we stopped Thanos, but now everyone they ever met in their reality has died due to demonic invasion.)

Same reason for being covert. If somebody stole a WMD, wouldn't you be more than a little curious why? Especially if it was someone from an alternate timeline that you didn't know anything about? Might you not try extra hard to go and find that someone, and get your weapon back? The idea here is that the stones are so powerful, and so dangerous, that you don't want anybody to know you're taking them for fear that they'll come and try to take them back. Or, say, the guy who is already looking for them and might want to take a shortcut. The whole time heist idea is to try and prevent something like 2014 Thanos coming into the future to take the stones. It doesn't work, but it's still a sound idea.

But my god this film had wayyyyy too many plot contrivances it was unreal:

Well, Captain Marvel can fly freely in space, and they may have tracked Maw's ship when it left Earth. We know she met the Avengers from the post credits scene in Captain Marvel. Not a stretch to think she was out, I don't know, actively looking for Tony or anything. And it did take three weeks to find him, after all.

As for the rest, yes. You're not wrong. But the movie is built around those contrivances not because it's lazy writing, but because we're literally watching a 1 in 14 million series of events play out. If everything doesn't go perfectly, if even one tiny little rat doesn't step on exactly the right button, the Avengers lose. Again. Captain Marvel has to arrive at exactly the right moment, not once but twice. The writers built themselves an engine to allow for an element of contrivance, to set themselves up for the big set piece at the end. YMMV, but I personally thought it was fairly well executed.

[kingaliencracker]

Because the risk is that without the stones, the new divergent realities will all suffer horrific tragedy and death. The Ancient One is referring explicitly to the Time Stone, which the sorcerers need to defend the Earth from the likes of Dormommu. Without it, the new reality created by it's absence would be slaughtered by evil demons or lord knows what else. The Avengers aren't looking to save themselves at somebody else's expense. (Imagine that sequel. Where people from the divergent reality come to ours to murder the Avengers because sure, we stopped Thanos, but now everyone they ever met in their reality has died due to demonic invasion.)

Same reason for being covert. If somebody stole a WMD, wouldn't you be more than a little curious why? Especially if it was someone from an alternate timeline that you didn't know anything about? Might you not try extra hard to go and find that someone, and get your weapon back? The idea here is that the stones are so powerful, and so dangerous, that you don't want anybody to know you're taking them for fear that they'll come and try to take them back. Or, say, the guy who is already looking for them and might want to take a shortcut. The whole time heist idea is to try and prevent something like 2014 Thanos coming into the future to take the stones. It doesn't work, but it's still a sound idea.

Again, show me a statement by either Bruce or TAO in which it was stated they weren't traveling back to their own past? We clearly know that not to be the case given Steve's ending.

[Jokerz79]

My take on the time travel in Avengers Endgame.

2012: Unknown at the moment I think Loki might end up being returned to a few moments after he left in 2012 like Cap Capturing at the end of the Loki series thus maintaining the timeline or it turns out to be a new Divergent Timeline.

2013: No Changes since Steve returned the Reality Stone and Mjolnir.

2014: Straight up created a Divergent Parallel Timeline to the original (Wish we got to see Cap's face when he returns the Soul Stone and meets the Guardian.).

1970: Nothing was changed once Steve returns the Tesseract.

Caps Ending: A Time loop and Steve is actually maintaining the timeline he reunited with Peggy post Agent Carter Series and took an alias and lived in the shadows allowing events to play out as they always did.

[kingaliencracker]

My take on the time travel in Avengers Endgame.

2012: Unknown at the moment I think Loki might end up being returned to a few moments after he left in 2012 like Cap Capturing at the end of the Loki series thus maintaining the timeline or it turns out to be a new Divergent Timeline.

2013: No Changes since Steve returned the Reality Stone and Mjolnir.

2014: Straight up created a Divergent Parallel Timeline to the original (Wish we got to see Cap's face when he returns the Soul Stone and meets the Guardian.).

1970: Nothing was changed once Steve returns the Tesseract.

Caps Ending: A Time loop and Steve is actually maintaining the timeline he reunited with Peggy post Agent Carter Series and took an alias and lived in the shadows allow events to play out as they always did.

Exactly as I see it.

[AJBopp]

The worst thing about movies like this is the buzzkill back and forth discussions on forums about whether the time travel makes sense.

As if time travel can make sense.

[SpiderClops]

-Character-wise... freaking nailed it.
-I liked Thor, he was absolutely hilarious. Sue me. And he still kicked Thanos' ass, twice.
-The time-travel did make sense... until the very last scene. Yeah, that Cap scene makes no sense.
-That last battle is arguably the greatest battle ever put on the big screen, and it will be a long time till it's topped.
-The first act is pure brilliance. The feeling of hopelessness it creates in the world is amazing.

-Downsides I'd say, BW's death wasn't as impactful as I thought it'd be.
-5 year jump is good decision for this film, but it's going to be problematic for future films.
-Cap's decision to stay back in the past seem selfish, and it also screws up the internal logic of the film.

But those are minor hiccups. Overall, I'd give it 9.5/10.

[kingaliencracker]

The worst thing about movies like this is the buzzkill back and forth discussions on forums about whether the time travel makes sense.

As if time travel can make sense.

Very true. Time travel doesn't really make sense, and leads to these discussions.

The only two movies I feel nails time travel logic correctly are The Terminator and Predestination.

[kingaliencracker]

-Character-wise... freaking nailed it.
-I liked Thor, he was absolutely hilarious. Sue me. And he still kicked Thanos' ass, twice.
-The time-travel did make sense... until the very last scene. Yeah, that Cap scene makes no sense.
-That last battle is arguably the greatest battle ever put on the big screen, and it will be a long time till it's topped.
-The first act is pure brilliance. The feeling of hopelessness it creates in the world is amazing.

-Downsides I'd say, BW's death wasn't as impactful as I thought it'd be.
-5 year jump is good decision for this film, but it's going to be problematic for future films.
-Cap's decision to stay back in the past seem selfish, and it also screws up the internal logic of the film.

But those are minor hiccups. Overall, I'd give it 9.5/10.

Again, there is no internal logic screwed up unless you interpret Bruce's and TAO's differently than what was intended. The fact that Cap travels back and lives out his life, and able arrive in the current MCU timeline clearly shows that they were travelling back to their own past.

[Rincewind]

First two acts were good the final act was too boring for me. Just an epic battle. The first two acts were full of character moments last was all about scale etc.

But my god this film had wayyyyy too many plot contrivances it was unreal:

Marvel outta nowhere saves Stark, literally got no info, how does she know him? How does she know where the hell he is in the vastness of space?

Rat. Like come one.

Gauntlet needed to be made to withold the stones but nah stark tech can take care of it! And the glove can also expand to fit Hulk too!

And the banner Hulk thing was just what the hell, again mentioned in one sentence and we just have to accept that happened.

Captain Marvel. Barely appears in the film unless it is convenient.

Nebula thing. I didn't buy the same frequency BS, hated that was the way Thanos knew.

If this was any other CBM it would be getting crapped on but epic final battle and the endgame means it'll be a let off. I thought TDKR was bad with convenience but holy hell a film with a 3hr run time barely explains anything. And they did Widow dirty all she got was Banner throwing something off a boat!

Also I hate Falcon, like and he is gonna be the new Cap? Piss off. The dude looks like he is trying way to hard to act cool.

This in some respects was more disappointing then the Captain Marvel film.

6/10.

Captain Marvel did not come out of nowhere. The mid credit scene of her movie is Carol arriving to answer Fury's page. 1. She showed up on Earth 2. Rocket gave her information on how to track the Benetar. 3. Carol finds the Benetar and returns to Earth.

It took 5 years before a random rat crawled on the van's controls to return Scott. If it happened the same day, or a few days later, I would call it a contrivance. The fact that it took 5 years for something to happen means that the equipment was set up to return Scott, it just took 5 years before anything set it off.

Thanos used the Dwarves to forge the Gauntlet. Stark used his nano tech. No matter what was used, it damaged whoever used the Stones. The Stark Gauntlet expanded because it's nano tech and the movies have already shown that nano tech is adaptable.

Banner had 5 years to work on therapy and research his condition. It would be wrong to me if he hadn't had any changes in that time.

Captain Marvel is not Earth exclusive. The galaxy is a big place and not every planet has the Avengers. She showed up when she knew they needed help.

The movie explained how Nebula's network worked. It doesn't contradict anything shown about Nebula in prior movies. I liked this twist because it showed that no matter how well planned the Time Heist was, it couldn't account for every factor.

The movie kept stressing "Whatever it takes." Black Widow personified that. There were definitely more reactions than Banner throwing a bench. The OG Avengers are hurt by her death, but they still had to reverse the snap. Banner specifically said he tried to bring Natasha back. At the end, Clint and Wanda talk about the people they've lost.

Falcon becoming the new Cap is not a plot contrivance. It's you not liking the plot. It's not an issue for the movie, it's an issue for you alone.

[Vworp Vworp]

A couple quick thoughts on the whole time-travel thing:

1. Include me in the group of people who believe Steve was always Peggy's husband and that returning to that time only fulfilled his destiny along the main timeline, rather than create a divergent timeline based upon his arrival. It plays into the lack of reveal of Peggy's husband, her years of looking at Steve's picture longingly can be interpreted as her missing him while she's at a new post (like Los Angeles in AGENT CARTER, assuming Steve arrived before the events of that show), and it could also explain why Sharon would be an ideal candidate to babysit the young Steve who awoke in the future. Yes, this makes the single kiss Steve and Sharon kissed a bit more than awkward, but like her aunt Sharon is a spy and can keep her trap shut and roll with the odd objectionable thing for the sake of the greater good of a mission.

I think he has to arrive a little after the last episode of Agent Carter if we're to assume the whole show hasn't been altered/erased. I mean, I can buy the idea of Peggy keeping quiet about her Cap to his younger self (and a few others) in her later movie appearances.

But there's no way Cap was in her life during the events of either season of Agent Carter. It simply doesn't fit with everything we saw, from her character development to potential romantic relationships.