Avengers: Endgame Spoilers

[Roundman]

I suppose I feel that in Odin's mind, "worthy" meant worthy of being Thor, not worthy as in good, upright, moral guy. Worthy would mean worthy of being an Asgardian warrior, and of noble lineage, as well as being humble and stuff.

Having Cap lift it makes it seem like a test of morality, which seems odd to me. FTR, I wasn't thrilled when Vision lifted it either, but passed it off as he's a machine and it's basically the same thing as the hammer rising in an elevator.

It is a test of morality- Asgardian morality. Only a worthy warrior by Asgardian moral standards is fit to lift it. Remember, Cap is a soldier, a warrior who has killed people in battle when necessary. Mjolnir judges Cap on those Asgardian moral standards- on his nobility (in the moral sense, not in the genealogical sense). I can easily accept that Cap meets the Asgardian standards of worthiness.

Worthiness has nothing to do with lineage, otherwise Beta Ray Bill and other worthies couldn't lift it.

I agree with your criticism and analysis of Vision lifting Mjolnir. I think he lifted it like an elevator can "lift" it. Mjolnir wasn't judging Vision's worthiness. It also wasn't bestowing any powers onto Vision. It was considering Vision to be an object, not an entity. Though really I just think it was a bad decision by Whedon. Really, I don't think the MCU did a good job with Vision. He just sort of appeared 2/3rds of the way through AoU and was mostly in the background until the end of Infinity War. But I've never really cared about Vision in the comics either, so that might be skewing my view somewhat.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It bugged me that apparently every planet (titan, vormir, soul stone planet, power stone planet) has an earth like atmosphere so the hero can walk around without oxygen masks.

It bugged me that 90% of aliens basically look human or humanoid bipedals in shape (were all aliens in the mcu made by some higher alien race?) and understand english for some unexplained reason.

It bugged me that they never considered undoing the 5 years. Think about all the people that commited suicide in those 5 years because their loved ones were dusted.

All the kids that had their parents dusted and were abandoned for 5 years.

All the people who died in plane crashes because the pilots were dusted, who werent brought back 5 years later.

I imagine that they didn't want to overtax the gauntlet. They knew how the first snap nearly destroyed it. So they probably weren't confident that it couldn't do much more than what it had already done.

The MCU gauntlet isn't the comic gauntlet, that can do literally anything. It has limits. Erasing 5 years of time on a universal scale would likely be beyond those limits.

[AJBopp]

It is a test of morality- Asgardian morality. Only a worthy warrior by Asgardian moral standards is fit to lift it. Remember, Cap is a soldier, a warrior who has killed people in battle when necessary. Mjolnir judges Cap on those Asgardian moral standards- on his nobility (in the moral sense, not in the genealogical sense). I can easily accept that Cap meets the Asgardian standards of worthiness.

Worthiness has nothing to do with lineage, otherwise Beta Ray Bill and other worthies couldn't lift it.

That's an interpretation of worthiness that isn't supported by anything in the movies. Neither is mine, ftm. It's just my view. Also, Beta Ray Bill isn't in the movies, and as far as I know no one else in the movies has been worthy. What happened in the comics counts for nothing in the movies.

[The Cool Thatguy]

That was a plot point in Endgame. Even Thor questioned whether he was still worthy, which is why he was relieved when Mjonir returned to him in Asgard. I guess worthiness isn't reduced by struggling through a depressive episode.

Imagine that!

*cough*

[Roundman]

That's an interpretation of worthiness that isn't supported by anything in the movies. Neither is mine, ftm. It's just my view. Also, Beta Ray Bill isn't in the movies, and as far as I know no one else in the movies has been worthy. What happened in the comics counts for nothing in the movies.

Even if we're not considering the comics, I'd say my position is supported by discussions in Thor and AoU, as well as by Thor's reactions in AoU and Endgame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI0ghm2_Kc4

Odin is clearly setting up the ability to wield Mjolnir as test of character. And he's obviously opening up the possibility to people other than Thor Odinson, as Odin specifically says "Whosoever holds this hammer...." If it were only for Thor, then he'd say something more along the lines of "Thor shall only wield this hammer and its powers when he's worthy".

[Vworp Vworp]

The MCU gauntlet isn't the comic gauntlet, that can do literally anything. It has limits. Erasing 5 years of time on a universal scale would likely be beyond those limits.

Would it though? Thanos doesn't think so, considering his revised plan was to erase the entire universe and create an entirely new one. If it can do that from scratch, 5 years is practically an insignificance.

[rpmaluki]

It bugged me that apparently every planet (titan, vormir, soul stone planet, power stone planet) has an earth like atmosphere so the hero can walk around without oxygen masks.

It bugged me that 90% of aliens basically look human or humanoid bipedals in shape (were all aliens in the mcu made by some higher alien race?) and understand english for some unexplained reason.

It bugged me that they never considered undoing the 5 years. Think about all the people that commited suicide in those 5 years because their loved ones were dusted.

All the kids that had their parents dusted and were abandoned for 5 years.

All the people who died in plane crashes because the pilots were dusted, who werent brought back 5 years later.

They decided against undoing the last 5 years in the same vein of returning the stones (and hammer) in the exact moment they acquired them. They didn't want to change the past as that would create an alternate timeline and that was never the goal. This movie was too concerned with preserving the integrity of the timeline(s). They could bring back the snapped into the present but they couldn't reverse the snapping AND the years that followed without possibly messing everything else worse than before based on the dialogue. They couldn't bet on an unknown probability. It wasn't a perfect solution but they worked with what they got. I feel like some things may have changed regardless based on the Loki that used the tesseract, dead Nebula and maybe even Old Man Rogers (though I suspect he was always Peggy's husband, he just hadn't reached that point in his life, it was the in the past but not yet live in his future as time travel explained by Bruce).

[Anarchist]

Honestly, while I enjoyed the movie very much, especially the final battle.....it just wasn't fair for Tony to die. Steve should've died. It would have been far more fitting, for both character arcs.

Tony deserved retirement and happyness with his still living family far more than Steve with his already deceased girlfriend.

[Vworp Vworp]

I don't agree with every point in this article. But some of it does hit home.

https://www.esquire.com/entertainmen...arvel-failure/

Two days out of seeing Endgame, and now that the initial overwhelming thrill of the experience has died down, I find myself thinking about Endgame a lot, and not always in a positive way. Understand, I still consider it a phenomenal movie that on first viewing had me in tears of sadness, joy, elation, and sometimes just literally shaking.

But when I separate myself from that feeling, and look at Endgame purely as a movie, that elephant in the room keeps stepping on my toe. Cos this movie really is a big ol' sausagefest. Sure, that's in part understandable given the ratio of male to female heroes/characters that the MCU has already established. But understanding something and being happy about it aren't the same thing. And I honestly think Natasha's death was the proverbial straw for me here.

The thing is, the lack of other female characters is, for the most part, justified by the narrative. Most of them have been Thanos'd; Carol dealing with the bigger picture beyond Earth makes sense - plus she doesn't yet have a history with anyone on the team (except the absent Fury) so sending her on one of the time heists might have seemed odd. And that really only leaves Nebula with a significant role to play. At that point, it's like "OK, fair enough".

Then Tasha dies. After not really doing much for the small part of the movie she's in. No, she isn't fridged. She's an established character making her own choice and it's nothing to do with motivating the male characters because they are already plenty motivated. But at the end of the day, she still dies. The one female member of the original team is killed off less than half-way into the movie. And in doing so, we lose our arguably main female character. So whilst the movie was already far from balanced anyway, now we don't have a main female character any more. And the balance suddenly feels a lot more one-sided.

Yes, the previously dusted women are back for the big finish. And we get our A-Force moment. Which is awesome. But it's also just that. A moment. Which, in the absence of Tasha actually feels a little... 'tokeny'.

[Amadeus Arkham]

It was definitely the Bucky line.

I really don’t see that as a reference to BvS at all. It’s just something that he says to his past self to shock enough so there could be an opportunity to subdue him.

I guess if you want, you could see using the name of a family or friend of your opponent to momentarily surprise them enough to stop could be seen as reference but I just don’t see it as an intentional nod.

[JKtheMac]

That's a good point, true. So you would agree at that point he wouldn't be worthy right? Anyways, I don't see why if Thor is worthy, Steve wouldn't be if not more so.

There is nothing unworthy about suffering. The development of Thor follows on directly from Infinity War. That scene where he is discussing his past with Groot and he puts on a brave face about how his traumatic past makes him the perfect person to take on Thanos. The whole thing is tied up. If you have the luxury of watching the movies back to back it will be more apparent.

Thor was channeling his entire life experience into killing Thanos, only to have him whisper about not taking a headshot. Then he anticlimactically kills Thanos in a cold blooded execution. This would take a toll on someone. Does it make him unworthy? He can’t tell for sure. Was his act the act of a vengeful killer or the act of a broken, desperate guy?

This is why meeting his mother was so important to him. He needed to reconnect with his past. Consider why he was driven so far, and whether he can hold onto himself through that.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Would it though? Thanos doesn't think so, considering his revised plan was to erase the entire universe and create an entirely new one. If it can do that from scratch, 5 years is practically an insignificance.

He threatened to do that. But that Thanos had never wielded the gauntlet, so he had no idea its true power or limitations

[Xheight]

It is a test of morality- Asgardian morality. Only a worthy warrior by Asgardian moral standards is fit to lift it. Remember, Cap is a soldier, a warrior who has killed people in battle when necessary. Mjolnir judges Cap on those Asgardian moral standards- on his nobility (in the moral sense, not in the genealogical sense). I can easily accept that Cap meets the Asgardian standards of worthiness.

Worthiness has nothing to do with lineage, otherwise Beta Ray Bill and other worthies couldn't lift it.

I agree with your criticism and analysis of Vision lifting Mjolnir. I think he lifted it like an elevator can "lift" it. Mjolnir wasn't judging Vision's worthiness. It also wasn't bestowing any powers onto Vision. It was considering Vision to be an object, not an entity. Though really I just think it was a bad decision by Whedon. Really, I don't think the MCU did a good job with Vision. He just sort of appeared 2/3rds of the way through AoU and was mostly in the background until the end of Infinity War. But I've never really cared about Vision in the comics either, so that might be skewing my view somewhat.

Well I wouldn't say it is just Asgardian morals but Odin's ideals as evidenced in the the first film when Thor is stripped of the power. We are sticking to MCU notions are we not which was what made the worth seem false to me. We have known that Cap was always a willing self sacrificing individual from his first movie giving us his commitment and valor and even loss of those closest to him. His arc was never about gaining more of that. His arc is on the locus of morality not if he gains more of a certain kind.

To parse that a bit Thor is willing to sacrifice his immoral life for his friends and earth which whatever one feels about Cap's life is a mortal one. The Vision in that regard does have an immortality perhaps approaching that of a god and yet is also as selfless in sacrifice.

[JKtheMac]

Would it though? Thanos doesn't think so, considering his revised plan was to erase the entire universe and create an entirely new one. If it can do that from scratch, 5 years is practically an insignificance.

The reason they don’t erase the five years is precisely the opposite of Thanos. They are not trying to be god. Tony is specifically thinking of not loosing what he has gained in those five years, and while that may at first sight seem selfish, it isn’t. It is a recognition that everyone that has lived their lives in that five years has a right to that time. The agony and the ecstasy of existence will not change just because some guy wipes out five years of time. That’s not how the real world works.

I think some people expected a reset button, but with those you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t. Some like them and feel satisfied. Some hate them with a passion and feel cheated of meaning.

It seems pretty obvious that the gauntlet is all-powerful. It also seems obvious that it is not to be used lightly.

[rpmaluki]

Undoing the 5 years is tantamount to rebooting and cancelling out any type of growth whether for our heroes or the world at large. And what guarantee was there that they wouldn't be down this road again reliving the event that lead to the first snapping?