Avengers: Endgame Spoilers

[Gorthon616]

I think I need to watch Ant-Man and The Wasp again, if they have any more information about this. But I think the platform was needed to made the initial entrance to QR. What Tony did was creating a time GPS so that they still have connection to the QR once they're in the time stream and can go to a specific point in time. Because if you think about it, they don't need to have a time platform on whenever they want to arrive and they also don't need it when they want to jump back.
I think what Steve did was once he jumped back to the 40s, he took off his time bracelet and just continue with his life with Peggy. Then when she passed away, he went to the Stark and Pym in this alternate timeline and ask them to build another time platform and jump him back into his original timeline

From what I recall, the Ant-Man and the Wasp mechanic of entering the quantum realm did require an outside for to return the traveler back to the ordinary world. Hence why Janet and Scott could be trapped there.

However, as you say, clearly the time platform does not exist in the past and so is not necessary to exist to travel to it, and as the changes Tony and Steve make to make an additional jump have not been accounted for by the time platform, so clearly the time platform does not limit where they can travel to or from.

He could have gone to the alternate reality Tony or he could have held onto it and used it later after she died. I prefer the latter because it requires the fewest additions to the story, but I can see reasons to go with the former. However, it should be kept in mind that Steve was always going to make multiple jumps to multiple time periods, so he would have to have some degree of control to determine when he needs to make the next jump, and alternative to not make the jump or choose to make the jump at a much later point in time.

[Midvillian1322]

Cap had a shield that was perfectly intact, so I think it’s safe to say he came back from an alternate timeline.

Yea I was wondering about that. That Sheild has a journey before it ends up broken Cap cant just take it unless its from an alternate time line. Unless we gonna find out old man Cap had Tchalla or someone make or fix one. Who's knows lol I like to think the Russo's thought all this out and the only reason we arent being told is because its apart of the story going forward

[PoorStudent]

I liked the movie, but I think this complicates the rest of the MCU, and seems like it does so because RDJ, the Russos and Evans are leaving so they kind of burned the bridges as they left.

Like the fact that they went in time 5 years and half came back, but there's now an age gap between the survivors and those who came back. So spider-man and black panther movies are gonna have to deal with this.

Also Gamora is now a new Gamora so I think the next guardians will be like a search for spock, and they kind of have to retread on old territory.

Also if they ever do x-men or fantastic four, are they now going to have to talk about that time when half the population went away, and then 5 years later, etc...

I think there was a better way have all the story and character moments, without this conceit. I know that it's a fantasy and science fiction story, so time travel, who cares, but I think they just made the MCU a lot more complicated then it needed to be.

[Divine Spark]

Yea I was wondering about that. That Sheild has a journey before it ends up broken Cap cant just take it unless its from an alternate time line. Unless we gonna find out old man Cap had Tchalla or someone make or fix one. Who's knows lol I like to think the Russo's thought all this out and the only reason we arent being told is because its apart of the story going forward

Makes me wonder if the Cap of that reality was left in ice until 2011. Did Steve tell people that?

[steve2275]

I really hope they follow through and Thor is in the next GOTG movie as a main character.

and captain marvel?

[Midvillian1322]

and captain marvel?

Why Captian Marvel shes not a Asgardian of the Galaxy lol that scene with Quil and Thor was Hilarious. But Carol has nothing to do with it she also doesn't really need a team shes overpowered all on her own. I mean the big bad it takes a team to beat was getting whooped on by her before he used Power stone on her

[Midvillian1322]

I liked the movie, but I think this complicates the rest of the MCU, and seems like it does so because RDJ, the Russos and Evans are leaving so they kind of burned the bridges as they left.

Like the fact that they went in time 5 years and half came back, but there's now an age gap between the survivors and those who came back. So spider-man and black panther movies are gonna have to deal with this.

Also Gamora is now a new Gamora so I think the next guardians will be like a search for spock, and they kind of have to retread on old territory.

Also if they ever do x-men or fantastic four, are they now going to have to talk about that time when half the population went away, and then 5 years later, etc...

I think there was a better way have all the story and character moments, without this conceit. I know that it's a fantasy and science fiction story, so time travel, who cares, but I think they just made the MCU a lot more complicated then it needed to be.

Feigie ain't letting no one burn any bridges.. the time jump doesnt matter to Black panther really. The only young character was Shuri and she got dusted too. Everyone else is older and you arent gonna notice 5years on them. There will be story beats like maybe Okoye was a better leader that will be addressed but Spiderman is the only franchise that is seriously effected. But they jsut say all the kids were dusted and that's solves that.

[joelr]

Incredible movie.
I haven't seen any mention of this yet but everyone was predicting cosmic beings and such and obviously we were way wrong. So I'm going to say - wow I was way off on that prediction!

The part I can't get past is why Thanos would drop sort of WW2 B-52 bomber type bombs on AV headquarters?
In 1952 Earth humans blew up a 15 MT bomb and from a ships deck at 30 miles away it looked like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Lfg_X3hLnU

Then Russia tested a 50 MT device.

Why would Thanos not just obliterate hundreds of miles with a fusion device and use his tech to find the stones in the rubble?

Ronan's ship was ridiculous too with that pirate-ship array of cannons shooting big bulky projectiles. An advanced race should at least have super powered lasers or small fast drones to sneak in a small antimatter device.

[steve2275]

Why Captian Marvel shes not a Asgardian of the Galaxy lol that scene with Quil and Thor was Hilarious. But Carol has nothing to do with it she also doesn't really need a team shes overpowered all on her own. I mean the big bad it takes a team to beat was getting whooped on by her before he used Power stone on her

quil isn't Asgardian neither are mantis drax or rocket

[Midvillian1322]

quil isn't Asgardian neither are mantis drax or rocket

Huh ?Thor jokingly called the Guardians the Asgardians of the Galaxy because hes now on the team and is not the leader *Wink*Wink*.

Did you watch the movie? Thor Joined the Guardians at the end of the movie. Carol had nothing to do with any of it.

[JKtheMac]

I saw Endgame yesterday and although I enjoyed it a lot, I think I enjoyed Infinity War more. Another viewing could change my mind though. There were a few times in the film that made me think "they got lucky there", but I've put that down to this film being the 1 in 14 million+ ways in which it could've happened. Such as the rat, assuming where the time stone would be and that Clint and Natasha were the ones to go and get the soul stone.

One thing that has got me wondering though, and I might be missing something, is that Scott was trapped in the quantum realm for 5 years, but to him it was only 5 hours. So why did Janet age 30ish years when she got trapped in there? Surely for her, she was only in there for 30 hours?

She avoided the ‘time vortices’ and warned Scott to avoid them. Of course Scott didn’t avoid one, so his time perception was governed by one. Presumably it could equally have made him experience time in entirely different ways, but as you say, he got lucky. It worked in his favour.

[JKtheMac]

The 5 year time jump was purely done for 4 characters.


Antman- to age up his daughter in the event Marvel decides to go with a team of young heroes. She can be Stature.

Tony Stark- to give him a period of happiness and some time with his daughter before his death

Bruce Banner- to give a beliveable timeframe for the audience. 5 years is enough time for fans to belive Banner did a lot of research and found a way to merge his two selves.

Thor- I don't think this one needed 5 years but they really wanted to show how much he'd fallen off and hit rock bottom I guess.


You could throw in Widow and Hawkeye. This allows Widow to be in charge for a decent period of time and gives a long enough period for Marvel to drop some plot points in feature films. Doesn't really lessen the sting of her death tho. I don't think a 5 year skip was necessary for Hawkeye who has never been a key character in any of these films.

Indeed, all of these considerations would be in play when they were writing the screenplay. However, I wouldn’t go so far to say these were the only reasons. The key reason was to show that the previous film had real stakes, and establish that this one won’t just hit a reset button.

The danger is that the movies will become tainted by the attitude of the comics. That feeling many readers express that nothing has any stakes. That death is temporary. That change is an illusion. That the status quo is king.

I would go so far as to say over half the arguments between comic fans have at their heart this tension between meaningful change by writers and the escapist comfort of illusory change.

[JKtheMac]

Long thread, may have missed stuff obviously.

Two things about the end thinking about it some more

1. It really seemed like Bucky knew exactly what cap was doing when he left. he was the only one not surprised at all and seemed at piece about it

2. Has the theory That cap lived with alternate timeline Peggy until she died then came back to prime timeline (now old) been debunked in anyway?

When I watched this the second time it was Bucky who first saw Cap. His is very briefly surprised. The performance is like ‘oh who is that... oh of course’ all in a brief facial expression. I would read this as Bucky knowing Steve well enough to realise what just happened. That Steve has decided to return the long way.

It’s not that ‘alternative universe Steve’ has been debunked, it’s that it would make very little logical sense. Within the context of the movie we have no reason to suspect Old Man Steve has used a quantum tunnel to get to this spot. As soon as we start to speculate that he has the issue would become ‘why’.

I imagine at some point the writers or Feige will give an interview where some of these questions are asked. Much like the questions Feige fielded about why Captain Marvel has been absent in New York etc. I believe he will explain that the rules of time travel were never fully understood by Banner or Stark. That the audience shouldn’t base their theories on what they said in the movie. That in some ways this was kind of Back to the Future, but without the butterfly effect.

He may even say that there is more than one way to look at time and leave it at that, because why limit themselves? The comics don’t. They have branching time most of the time, yet Doom’s time platform allows for time travel with changes.

[JKtheMac]

On my second watch I think I got an clue to how exactly Thanos managed to get through the quantum tunnel.

Firstly Nebula2 hands Thanos Nebula1’s Pym Particles. But of course she has to have used these to get back. Then later, when she goes back to the time machine her hand extends into the machine, and we see the same red colour as the Pym Particles between the joints of her hand. The implication is that Thanos was easily able to replicate them, and Nebula2 was able to use the technology differently.

Nebula1 was shown helping Banner and Lang get ready for a test run earlier, so the download of her memory would have let them understand the technology and perhaps work out ways to use the Pym Particles within the machine instead of on their person. We have to also assume that Thanos’ ship was also miniaturised to travel through the tunnel. This may or may not have required extra Pym Particles, but he could theoretically take weeks to prepare.

If the red glow between Nebula2’s finger joints is indeed evidence of Pym Particles, then they must be able to make them pretty quickly.

[JKtheMac]

Keep in mind that the Russo's have consistent described Cap has having a story arc from Winter Solider to Endgame. So you are reeaally calling into question their competency to render their own story as being invalid. If they hadn't been writing Cap and Peggy's interactions in previous movies, and it was a different director, I think it would be reasonable to presume a retcon/continuity error. However, given that these movies were also their movies, I think it's pretty unreasonable.

This keeps becoming the contention. Especially as I understand the arguments that were raging on Reddit.

The thing is both sides are using the argument, so they are clearly not listening to each other. This isn't an issue of script writing competency.

My personal theory, assumes the Russo Brothers knew exactly what they were doing. It just assumes that they were doing something different to what Banner asserted. That banner didn't actually get it right. That change in the past gets tidied up by the Infinity Stones, which also don't allow branching to occur.

This is often the problem with these kinds of arguments. You see things through your own perspective and then all of the data points seem to conform to your perspective, so you push the theories to prove that those data points can't be any other way. Yet the person arguing against you is doing the same thing with totally different assumptions.

I agree the Russo Brothers are highly unlikely not to have messed this up. It doesn't prove a particular theory to assert that point.

P.S. Again on second watching there are plenty of clues to suggest Steve did indeed travel back further than 1970 to meet up with Peggy. I imagined he would stay in 1970. The clues are the cars, the music choice, the nostalgic colour grading, no ageing makeup on Peggy. The lack of white in Peggy's hair (although that one is unclear because of the lighting) and the decor in the house.