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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Default What If The New Teen Titans Generation Succeeded The JLA After CoIE?

    I have been toying with this alternate history scenario for quite a while now, in which after the culmination of their Crisis on Infinite Earths event, the legacy, or sidekick generation takes over the roles of the more established heroes of the DC Universe. Dick Grayson becomes Batman. Donna Troy becomes Wonder Woman. Wally West goes down the same road that he did in our timeline. Kal El dies instead of Kara Zor El in CoIE #7 and Supergirl becomes the matriarch of the Superman franchise as Superwoman. These former sidekicks would form the new Justice League of America, along with leftovers from Infinity Inc, The Outsiders, and the New Teen Titans.

    This paradigm shift would be seen in the media as well. Dick Grayson would be the Batman introduced in Tim Burton's eponymous 1989 film of the same name, etcetera.

    This wouldn't be the case for every character who had a title at that time. Silver Age characters such as Hal Jordan, would still resume their titles as they lack a real legacy counterpart (unless you count John or Guy, but I always considered them to be roughly the same age as Hal). A select few older characters who have had never truly felt great success in the past, such as Aquaman or Green Arrow, would continue their mantles for a select period of time. The legacy characters in this new continuity, who haven't been killed off or retired, would form a new, contemporary iteration of the Justice Society.

    Would you have liked this to have happened in retrospect? Do you think this would have succeeded?

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    I like it.

  3. #3
    Spectacular Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    Do you think this would have succeeded?
    It would never have been greenlit - "Let's permanently replace Superman and Batman with supporting characters" would never go past the pitch stage. Those characters are basically money. Maybe trying that with other DC properties, 1 or 2 might have caught on.

    But the purpose of Crisis was to put DC back on the map. Marvel was outselling them 3 to 1. They needed to make their books less scary to Marvel fans - cleaning up the clutter of history, streamlining the characters and making them "relatable". So more iterations and legacies? That's going in the opposite direction of their needs at the time.

    Of course, in the 90s DC became all about legacies and mantles. But they could do that because the market had shrunk to mostly just the Direct Market. The audience was the already-converted.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    I have been toying with this alternate history scenario for quite a while now, in which after the culmination of their Crisis on Infinite Earths event, the legacy, or sidekick generation takes over the roles of the more established heroes of the DC Universe. Dick Grayson becomes Batman. Donna Troy becomes Wonder Woman. Wally West goes down the same road that he did in our timeline. Kal El dies instead of Kara Zor El in CoIE #7 and Supergirl becomes the matriarch of the Superman franchise as Superwoman. These former sidekicks would form the new Justice League of America, along with leftovers from Infinity Inc, The Outsiders, and the New Teen Titans.

    This paradigm shift would be seen in the media as well. Dick Grayson would be the Batman introduced in Tim Burton's eponymous 1989 film of the same name, etcetera.

    This wouldn't be the case for every character who had a title at that time. Silver Age characters such as Hal Jordan, would still resume their titles as they lack a real legacy counterpart (unless you count John or Guy, but I always considered them to be roughly the same age as Hal). A select few older characters who have had never truly felt great success in the past, such as Aquaman or Green Arrow, would continue their mantles for a select period of time. The legacy characters in this new continuity, who haven't been killed off or retired, would form a new, contemporary iteration of the Justice Society.

    Would you have liked this to have happened in retrospect? Do you think this would have succeeded?
    I don't know about killing off so many, but I have often wondered what it would be like to have the next generation step up to take over the mantles. Maybe in an Elseworld or something. Something like Bruce becomes too old/too injured to continue, so Dick steps up (until Damian is old enough), Clark wants more time to spend with his family so Kara steps up (though Clark still aids when asked), Artemis or Donna taking over for Diana whom either has to return to Themyscira or goes more civilian and what not (maybe working with international charities). That sort of thing.

  5. #5
    Boisterously Confused
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    It makes for a dandy Elseworld miniseries. Even had it been commercially sustainable (by no means at all certain), nobody was talking the IP owners into benching the starters in favor of minor league replacements.

  6. #6
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    It makes for a dandy Elseworld miniseries. Even had it been commercially sustainable (by no means at all certain), nobody was talking the IP owners into benching the starters in favor of minor league replacements.
    Right. Elseworld, yes, but never, ever otherwise.
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  7. #7
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    I believe Alex Ross had a Titans Elseworld storyline suggestion that sounds similar but was never done.


  8. #8
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    I believe Alex Ross had a Titans Elseworld storyline suggestion that sounds similar but was never done.

    I'd have loved reading it. But that Robin goatee might have been a deal-breaker.

  9. #9
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    It would never have been greenlit - "Let's permanently replace Superman and Batman with supporting characters" would never go past the pitch stage. Those characters are basically money. Maybe trying that with other DC properties, 1 or 2 might have caught on.
    The notion that "these characters are basically money" is correct, but I think that the mantles are more important to casual readers (maybe not hardcore fans) than the secret identities themselves. Hell, most of the time, the characters of Bruce Wayne, or Clark Kent become basically different characters every 20 to 30 years*, so why not have new people taking over their capes and cowl?

    *in regards to personality, aesthetics, moral values, etcetera.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    If there was a time to do it, this was the optimal time. I would have been fine with gradually retiring them the JL characters and letting the Titans slide into their space, and doing experimentation across the whole company to create new mythologies.

    But do it that way, not pass down the mantles. Especially at that time, the Titans were their biggest property and Dick proved he didn't need to be Batman to be successful. I dislike this whole notion that the Titans need to graduate from their property to the JL. It undermines everything they have accomplished on their own, and has stuck around so long now that it creates the stigma of the Titans being a dead end until they move on instead of being what they once were: the DC equivalent to the X-Men. Nobody wants to see graduating to the Avengers as the permanent endgame for the X-Men, so why should the same be true for the Titans? Only five of them are connected to JL members, when the majority are not League affiliations they lose the need to be connected.

    I doubt Dick would be Batman in B89. Or else they'd need a different director than Tim Burton, he was barley interested in doing a CBM with the actual Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    The notion that "these characters are basically money" is correct, but I think that the mantles are more important to casual readers (maybe not hardcore fans) than the secret identities themselves. Hell, most of the time, the characters of Bruce Wayne, or Clark Kent become basically different characters every 20 to 30 years*, so why not have new people taking over their capes and cowl?

    *in regards to personality, aesthetics, moral values, etcetera.
    I'm not so sure. Bruce and Clark are carved in stone as being Batman and Superman as far as the larger general populace is concerned. Casuals know their names without having read a single book. I doubt they care only for the mantles. Superman in particular has never been a mantle in any way that matters. Some imaginary stories from the 60s don't count because they happened every month and were quickly forgotten. Superman is Clark Kent is Superman.

    Their core themes stick around more or less throughout the reboots, and that's not getting into the fans who actually still like multiple takes and still wouldn't want replacements. Them being more archetypes than firm characters with arcs actually in some ways makes them stronger and more versatile than the next generation down.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    I believe Alex Ross had a Titans Elseworld storyline suggestion that sounds similar but was never done.

    Every time I See that image I'm dying to read the story behind it.

  12. #12
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'm not so sure. Bruce and Clark are carved in stone as being Batman and Superman as far as the larger general populace is concerned. Casuals know their names without having read a single book. I doubt they care only for the mantles. Superman in particular has never been a mantle in any way that matters. Some imaginary stories from the 60s don't count because they happened every month and were quickly forgotten. Superman is Clark Kent is Superman.

    Their core themes stick around more or less throughout the reboots, and that's not getting into the fans who actually still like multiple takes and still wouldn't want replacements. Them being more archetypes than firm characters with arcs actually in some ways makes them stronger and more versatile than the next generation down.
    Agreed. Everybody knew who Clark and Bruce were by 1985, while many were familiar with Diana as Wonder Woman thanks to Lynda Carter. Now the other DC superheroes' secret identities were unknown to the vast majority of America (except for Dick Grayson, but the average person only knew of him as Robin), but definitely was not the case regarding the Trinity.
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  13. #13
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    Every time I See that image I'm dying to read the story behind it.
    Every time I see that image I'm dying to know why Jimmy Smits is portraying Robin.
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  14. #14
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    Initially, John Stewart was younger than both Hal Jordan & Guy Gardner. He was still a minor when Abin was looking for a successor. John could be the GL for this group.

    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    I believe Alex Ross had a Titans Elseworld storyline suggestion that sounds similar but was never done.

    That is a nice image.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Right. Elseworld, yes, but never, ever otherwise.

    Agreed. Plus I'd like to see it be a little more complete with the following:


    Aquaman(Garth)
    Batman(Dick)
    Batwoman(Barbara)
    Flash(Wally)
    Green Arrow(Roy)
    Hawkman(Charlie)
    Superwoman(Kara)
    Wonder Woman(Donna)


    Plus I'd add in:


    Dr. Light(Kimiyo)
    Firestorm
    Green Lantern(Hal)
    Vixen
    Zatanna
    Currently Reading:Batman & The Outsiders, Doomsday Clock, Female Furies, Freedom Fighters, Hawkman, Heroes in Crisis, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Shazam, Wonder Twins, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

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