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  1. #61
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant X View Post
    Terrible.

    Betsy was always a confident woman.
    While Brian was the shy kid, she was the outgoing one.
    She was a supermodel and never had problems showing her body:



    The only insecurity she overcome with the body swap was not be able to physically fight the enemies as a X-men.
    It looks like the writer just wanted to express some of her own experiences on the character.

    The rest of the issue was boring as hell.
    I remember this I thought this was prior to the body swap though. at any rate I love that image of colossus mmmmm mmmm good

    edit read it wrong. ur absolutely right. good to know people still keep up with the events in canon.
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 04-26-2019 at 08:58 PM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Where is the remorse from Mystique & Daken for all their murder & rape? lol They regret nothing, yet get pardoned as anti-heroes. Mystique had a one-shot recently about what a pile a crap she is. Yet she's an anti-hero who everyone wants to have loving relationships and / or get Destiny back. Then again, I wouldn't be opposed to her getting Destiny back. Anything to keep her away from Creed. She's also ruined him in the last decade.

    The inversion for Creed had tons more potential and made for longer story, and possibly even internal struggle as it wears off with his good & evil coming into conflict with one another. And it could have even made for a genuine organic change as time wore on. Hell if Orochimaru can become a hero, Creed is not out of the question. lol

    But once again, that potential got axed when Pak got hold of him & used him as the team butt-monkey while ignoring all Bunn's work. Then he had to change narratives when he had Mary Su Logan & Warpath snatched from him. lol Then Creed's reverted for the sake of making him a lame, one-note pussified, punching-bag, d-lister villain again. Yippie. Be one thing if we were getting the good villain version of him like the 90's. But somehow I doubt that's gonna be the case.
    Mystique is one of the few exceptions to the X-men dont kill rule that should have been enacted years ago. She's also irredeemable. I havent read much on Daken but he tends to fall in the same category. He only had one very brief stint as an X-man and that was only bc Magneto was desperate to need help stopping Mothervine bc the O5 were lost in space

  3. #63
    Mighty Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Where is the remorse from Mystique & Daken for all their murder & rape? lol They regret nothing, yet get pardoned as anti-heroes. Mystique had a one-shot recently about what a pile a crap she is. Yet she's an anti-hero who everyone wants to have loving relationships and / or get Destiny back. Then again, I wouldn't be opposed to her getting Destiny back. Anything to keep her away from Creed. She's also ruined him in the last decade.

    The inversion for Creed had tons more potential and made for longer story, and possibly even internal struggle as it wears off with his good & evil coming into conflict with one another. And it could have even made for a genuine organic change as time wore on. Hell if Orochimaru can become a hero, Creed is not out of the question. lol

    But once again, that potential got axed when Pak got hold of him & used him as the team butt-monkey while ignoring all Bunn's work. Then he had to change narratives when he had Mary Su Logan & Warpath snatched from him. lol Then Creed's reverted for the sake of making him a lame, one-note pussified, punching-bag, d-lister villain again. Yippie. Be one thing if we were getting the good villain version of him like the 90's. But somehow I doubt that's gonna be the case.
    Mystique and Daken aren't antiheroes tho, And the difference is without a magic spell those problematic characters at least have shown remorse for actions. There was never internal struggle Creed being "good" it wasn't him. You don't seem to get the point Wolverine and Deadpool are barely heroes they are good arguments why people shouldn't accept them as heroes and Creed is worse. You hit the nail on the head with your comparison Sabertooth belongs in a group with Mystique and Daken.

    Which bring us back to Blob and what makes him now compelling, He has learned if things were different he could be a better man. And in 616 he can decide to be that and unlike Deadpool and Wolverine, he is not a killer. Like Rogue, Hawkeye, and Songbird as criminals, you can overlook the things he did as a bad guy because in Blob case much of it was in defense of mutants even though it was misguided. Nothing against Sabertooth just simply pointing out the baggage Frenzy or Blob has nowhere close to Sabertooth. Hell, it is nowhere close to Wolverine or Deadpool either. It is not difficult to cheer for Blob, I think Punisher is Serial Killer I have fewer problems with him than Creed

  4. #64
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    Blob hasn't learned anything, he doesn't know that the reality that he's in isn't the real one, as far as he knows everything around him is real and he was always like he is now, he doesn't know that he is really a villain, and his past was different in AoX than in the 616, so he's not the same guy and isn't just going to magically change and keep this current version, and there'd be no reason for Blob to stay this version, if anything it'd be just as likely that he'd be furious with being messed with and all of that, you can't overlook everything that Blob did...the Punisher isn't the same...

  5. #65
    Mighty Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    Blob hasn't learned anything, he doesn't know that the reality that he's in isn't the real one, as far as he knows everything around him is real and he was always like he is now, he doesn't know that he is really a villain, and his past was different in AoX than in the 616, so he's not the same guy and isn't just going to magically change and keep this current version, and there'd be no reason for Blob to stay this version, if anything it'd be just as likely that he'd be furious with being messed with and all of that, you can't overlook everything that Blob did...the Punisher isn't the same...
    Where did you read he is magically change into age of xman Blob. He is going to have his memories more than likely and he is going decide to if he wants to be that man. Blob has multiple reasons to want to be guy the biggest one Psylocke and second one the feeling of being hero and loved by people.

    Nobody is saying this guarantee the direction they will go but Blob as hero has compelling story. Blob as hero there is nothing else like him.In an era they are more aware of representation a overweight hero has some appeal to a publisher.

    If Blob stays the same fine they are good reason for that.If Blob changes to become more like his AoXman version fine they will be reasons as well.

  6. #66
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    If you change the past then any number of things change, as for being loved by Betsy and people most of what they have or could have is a lie as neither one of them is their real self and the people that love him in the AoX reality are not even close to the people in the 616 verse who will not share the same feelings about him, he's only that man because he's had his mind and such messed with, not because he chose any of it himself...

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Mystique is one of the few exceptions to the X-men dont kill rule that should have been enacted years ago. She's also irredeemable. I havent read much on Daken but he tends to fall in the same category. He only had one very brief stint as an X-man and that was only bc Magneto was desperate to need help stopping Mothervine bc the O5 were lost in space
    I can agree with you on both counts. My thing with them is the fandom reaction. When Daken joined Magneto, ya had people excited or who seemed to find it interesting. Then when he appeared in Iceman, you got hords of fans shipping him with Bobby.

    Then when it's Creed joining a team or being teased with a heroine romantically -even one like Monet who is a bit questionable, numerous fans wanna crap a stone.

    I even had a slight debate with someone over that. They hate Creed & that I ship Monet with a rapist. Buit when it came to Daken, he was somehow MUCH better, and being paired with Bobby for a fling was perfectly legit because Daken is hot.

    And other fans who have every kind of defense in the book for Mystique's disgusting behavior. Like she was abused or crazed with grief. But Creed is just disgusting. As if Mystique isn't. Hell, she's sleeping with the man/ She can't be much better. She's raped Logan, taken pictures, sent them to his girlfriend, and laughed about it. Yet somehow she's sympathetic with redeeming qualities & Creed isn't/

    That's why I stopped taking arguments against Creed seriously when it seems there's a large portion of fandom who only seem to have these standards with him, but give pardon to other characters sho are equally as bad.

    If you do see Daken, Creed, and Mystique on even footing, I can completely agree with your sentiments. But half the time, it's only Creed people don't like. And every other villain is understandable. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Mystique and Daken aren't antiheroes tho, And the difference is without a magic spell those problematic characters at least have shown remorse for actions. There was never internal struggle Creed being "good" it wasn't him. You don't seem to get the point Wolverine and Deadpool are barely heroes they are good arguments why people shouldn't accept them as heroes and Creed is worse. You hit the nail on the head with your comparison Sabertooth belongs in a group with Mystique and Daken.
    But people do except Wolverine & Deadpool as heroes. And they aren't good people. And when did Daken & Mystique show remorse? Far as I know, they haven't. Daken only cares about Laura, and Mystique only cared about Destiny -being the only one exempt from her abuse. But you got manu fans who wanna see them join the X-Men. Or who have no issues when they do. And many fans on different platforms have called them anti-heroes.

    And there was room for more struggle. The inversion didn't implant goodness into Creed. Invert means to reverse. It flipped his good & evil, which means there was always some good to swap. Otherwise, that spell wouldn't have worked.

    I basically wrote about that on tumblr with many who seemed to misunderstand the point of the inversion.
    https://shydaydreamer28.tumblr.com/p...ooth-inversion
    Like someone here saying Creed is incapable of love, but now that he's inverted he may not be. That made no sense. lol

    Which bring us back to Blob and what makes him now compelling, He has learned if things were different he could be a better man. And in 616 he can decide to be that and unlike Deadpool and Wolverine, he is not a killer. Like Rogue, Hawkeye, and Songbird as criminals, you can overlook the things he did as a bad guy because in Blob case much of it was in defense of mutants even though it was misguided. Nothing against Sabertooth just simply pointing out the baggage Frenzy or Blob has nowhere close to Sabertooth. Hell, it is nowhere close to Wolverine or Deadpool either. It is not difficult to cheer for Blob, I think Punisher is Serial Killer I have fewer problems with him than Creed
    Same for Creed. Inverted, we were seeing the good that was always present in him. The spell brought that out. And possibly if he'd gotten help sooner & had some of the chances Logan or Deadpol had, things could be different. Even in the 90's, it was shown Creed was empty & unhappy, but didn't know what to do.
    Locked Up.jpg
    Kitty Creed (1).jpg

    Then Birdy, his main abuse victim, theorizes he was hurt too much as a child when she sees inside his head.
    RCO012_1470039278.jpg
    Of course that didn't stop her from doing what she needed to get the Hell away from him. lol

    Even as a villain, Creed has shown some moments of humanity. It's been theorized his mutations causes some issues, the abuse of his father when he was only 8 added to it, and after a while giving into his urges & being a monster is what he knew to do. Him coming from such a darker & lower place makes things all the more interesting.

    But the development would take more time that Marvel is willing to give. With all their relaunches, constantly shuffling character to different writers, and not making writers keep consistency, it seems they don't care about development -so much as they care about events & whatever they think is the next big thing.

    Sabretooth would need to stay with one writer to do the story. Bunn said he had long plans for Sabretooth & wasn't in a hurry to revert him. But again, he lost the character. I think the inversion could be used as an opening to have Sabretooth working with others for more altruistic purposes, and show him developing bonds with others & getting in touch with the humanity he's tried so hard to suppress or ignore. Then take Bunn's approach, when he felt it starting to wear off in Uncanny, he decided to try & be something different. Something other than the lie his inverted self was, but something other than the monster he real self was. So has it wears off, have him determined to organically change now that he's experienced some of the positives Logan has in more full form. But won't be easy given he's been evil for around 142 years. But continuing from there with the spell wearing off, and Creed struggling to do better on his own, without the magic crutch.

    And have Monet try to help him. Bunn would've made them a couple had he not lost the characters. He confirmed last year that they had feelings for each other when he says they had a torturous love. So Monet battling her dark side with Emplate's influence & Creed battling his dark side as well would've made for interesting & possibly some dark developments as they try to stay connected & motivated to face their demons together.

    Very good chances were wasted with Creed that, imo, were more compelling than Blob of all characters. lol And like stated just above, there was some tampering with all the characters in this world that's making them behave the way they are. We see them under different circumstances just like we did with Creed during the inversion.

    All this is compounded by Creed's washed-up villainy. Because also, imo, he hasn't been interesting or dangerous since 2002. He's just a waste of space as a villain. As an anti-hero, he's got more to offer, imo as a fan.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 04-27-2019 at 06:22 AM.

  8. #68
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    Eh, if you’re talking about fan reactions, no body defends mystique and it seems most of the people defending ramen (there still aren’t a lot) because of wanting more/better lgbt characters/stories.

  9. #69
    Mighty Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    I

    All this is compounded by Creed's washed-up villainy. Because also, imo, he hasn't been interesting or dangerous since 2002. He's just a waste of space as a villain. As an anti-hero, he's got more to offer, imo as a fan.
    You keep selling this as fact and it isn't the truth Sabertooth works just fine as villian but you have clear stated how you feel . What Sabertooth offers as antihero is already done by Venom, Kaine,Wolverine,Cable, Shatterstar,Warpath,X-23, Deadpool, Bishop,Punisher, Jimmy Hudson,Gambit,etc many those guys don't have the baggage of Sabertooth . Anyways the point was never that Sabertooth couldn't be a hero, The point was it was problematic that he was hero much in the same way when X-men allow Magneto, Mystique, Daken to work with them or when Avengers allow Punisher to "help".

    The big point it is way easier to accept Blob as hero and it is hard to find a moment sheer evil that would turn fans off from him. Blob and Sabertooth aren't the same thing. Sabertooth is in a group of villains with Purple Man and Carnage that you never going to most fan to root for them. Sabertooth inversion and possible change to good for Blob aren't same thing. Anyway this too much discussion for a thing that will probably never happen and Sabertooth is back to villain so moot point there as well.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    You keep selling this as fact and it isn't the truth Sabertooth works just fine as villain but you have clear stated how you feel .
    He works fine as a villain for people who are not real fans of him. Myself & majority of Creed's actual fans acknowledge how much he's been shat on over the years. His treatment as a villain is embarrassing. Again, this is coming from a fan perspective & it seems to be shared by majority, if not all of his other real fans.

    Different standards come into play with things you care more about. If you are indifferent to Creed or think he's alright but you're not the biggest fan, you won't see the big deal in his treatment as a villain. But for people who were big fans when he started hitting his stride in the 80's - 2002, his 2003-2014 treatment is a disappointment.

    What Sabertooth offers as antihero is already done by Venom, Kaine,Wolverine,Cable, Shatterstar,Warpath,X-23, Deadpool, Bishop,Punisher, Jimmy Hudson,Gambit,etc many those guys don't have the baggage of Sabertooth .
    If we're gonna play that card, what does Creed offer as a villain that Mystique, Daken, Sinister, Nova, Apocalypse, Mojo, Deathstrike, The Hand, Emma, Omega Red, Vulcan, Ahab, Azazel, Silver Samurai, Viper, Shadow King, Carnage, Deathbird, and Magneto don't? Besides the most jobbing? lol

    It goes both ways. All characters fall into tropes. Everything has already been done. However, anti-heroes tend to get more shine, development & treatment than most villains. What you keep referring to as baggage makes things even more interesting BECAUSE he's coming from a darker place. He has more to make up for, and a lot harder of a journey. That's more interesting & depth-filled than anything he's done as a villain between 2003-2014, imo

    As a villain, so far.

    * He's being brought back in a tie-in of all things. Mystique made the main-book / story and may be teamed up with Emma.
    * Creed wasn't on Scott's list of things to be addressed with Mystique, Magneto, Sinister, Nova, Apocalypse, and even Mojo. Lol
    * He's not on the Hickman promo poster that other villains made, such as Sinister, Magneto, Emma, etc.

    Creed has recently been reverted & already going in & out of limbo as a villain of the week with very little buzz being made for the comeback of this supposed good villain that's been gone for 4 years. lol

    The big point it is way easier to accept Blob as hero and it is hard to find a moment sheer evil that would turn fans off from him.
    And that was moot to my original point. Originally, I agreed with Dogg that Creed works as an anti-hero for the reasons he says Blob does. He stated that Blob sucks as a villain, so making him an anti-hero is an improvement. And I agree with that point for Creed. Imo, he's sucked as a villain for 12 years prior to AXIS. So when that event came along, I feel he was changed for the better & had a chance for more justice as a character, which he already doesn't seem to be getting since his reversion.

    Maybe you see Creed as a good villain. I am not that optimistic. As a fan, I am more critical of the embarrassing treatment he's gotten. As stated, when I think of villain Creed, all I see is this. Because there's been more of it.


    Last edited by Silver Fang; 04-28-2019 at 03:35 AM.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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  13. #73
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Last edited by Silver Fang; 04-28-2019 at 03:10 AM.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Looking at all this, he offers nothing other d-listers don't offer. So cliche anti-hero > cliche punching-bag of the week.

    My original point isn't about who is more sympathetic or evil. It's about agreeing with another poster on both of them sucking as villains & profiting from being anti-heroes. But, the X-Office is against villains changing for the better even when they suck. So Blob probably isn't gonna stay a "hero" and Creed has already been damned & reset.

    But I agree with Dogg's original comment of nothing being lost when converting a lame villain to an anti-hero. That's a promotion. lol
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 04-28-2019 at 03:33 AM.

  15. #75
    Chris-chan of X-fans Maestroneto's Avatar
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    Good X-Tremists discussion, y’all.

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