How Flawed Should Peter Parker Be?

[Lukmendes]

Yes, I honestly think Insomniac Spider-Man (from what we've seen so far) is easily the best adaptation of Spider-Man in any material beyond the original 616 comics (and, to be fair, it's a lot better than a ton of the 616 comics as well). The guys over at Insomniac really seem to have a deep understanding of Spider-Man and what makes him work, which is part of why I am so hyped for their game!

Yeah, of all the games so far they seem to be using his intelligent side the most, I think the most we've seen of that in other games were just some different types of webbing (Like ice or fire), but even those weren't used much.

Maybe I wasn't clear; I didn't mean Peter should be the master of everything but that he should have mastered the things he is good at: basically being a hero and being a scientist/inventor, and in general being more self-assured and less immature.

Oh yeah, definitely, writters shouldn't be writing him like some inexperient amateur, he's been at this for too long and was actualy pretty competent even when starting out lol.

But I think it's pretty clear that Peter does sabotage himself, even in Slott's run. He didn't get the Horizon job until Aunt May asked Marla to ask Max Modell to give him a chance; it's not like Peter even bothered applying for a scientific think-tank job. Same with Parker Industries; he could have started a company like literally whenever but he never did until Ock forced him to take the reins. The fact that he was able to make both situations work so well is just testament to how smart he is, but even then he ended up self-sabotaging PI by deleting all it's data for no reason and not making a back-up. And of course, despite being more than capable of building another company or working at another think-tank, he self-sabotaged himself after it was over by just becoming a science writer at the Bugle.

Yes, he does sabotage himself, that I didn't deny, it just doesn't happen on the way Otto said it, because Otto says he sabotages himself because he doesn't think he's worth it (Gwen in ASM#23 vol 4 said something similar about him, but about his own happiness), it's not the case, because again, if it were he would have left Horizon Labs, or not be be feeling really out of place while working there. The way he sabotages himself is by grossly understimating his own potential, and not thinking ahead.

One thing that's worth noticing though, at the beginning of Brand New Day in ASM #546 it's pointed out while he's looking for other jobs, that he doesn't much in the scientific background to even get the job of a lab assistant, so trying to work on Horizon Labs, specialy at the position he got, yeah I don't think it'd work, he should still have tried, but like I said, he understimates himself, but anyways, he only got the job because of Marla's recommendation to begin with (He kept it because he was good at it, not denying that, but it was the connections that got him to that point).

I feel like your examples that he was happy when his inventions were helping people aren't really valid, since Peter doesn't secretly hate himself or anything, it's just that he feels guilty being successful. TBH I kinda feel like the whole self-sabotaging trait is just a manifestation of editorial mandate rather than being a real character trait of Peter's, but it would be super interesting if the writer's took it and ran with it since we could get a few awesome stories out of it IMO.

That's the thing though, the way Otto worded it in Superior #30 seemed to be pointing out that Peter does hate himself to an extent so he sabotages himself because of that, and while he does sabotage himself, again, it's another kind. And he didn't seem guilty at all about his success Horizon Labs era, he was pretty happy to actualy have his **** together, there wasn't any guilt at all, nor did he seem guilty about his success during the PI era, he was also pretty happy during that, so that's a case of an informed flaw because the way it actualy happens in other stories, and Slott's own, is not even close to being what the characters say.

Yeah, in some ways Peter was the origin of the Batman with prep meme lol.

Lol yeah, I noticed that too, hell I think that's how Batman defeats villains once in a while too, can't win, learn weak point, then win, certainly seems to be what's going to happen in the current Batman story (Stopped at #42, dunno what happens after, not really a fan of Tom King's Batman to be fair)

Thanks. I would also add, at least in more recent stories, that he does have a bit of a complex after years of being slandered and maligned in/by the press and having people --- whether regular civilians or the occasional fellow superhero --- afraid of or distrusting him as a result.

Wouldn't say that's exactly recent, back in Acts of Vengeance, when he got Captain Universe's powers, in Spectacular #160 he got really pissed that people were treating him worst than ever, although it seems that more recent comics are using this more often.

That, to me, is a big part of the reason he's constantly quipping and joking in costume; it's not that he wants people to take him less seriously, he just wants the people that aren't criminals and supervillains to not be afraid of him. Does he take it too far sometimes and end up coming off ridiculous as a result? Yes, but that's not so much because he is ridiculous, as it is him trying to put people that would naturally be scared of or uneasy around him at ease by coming off as nonthreatening as he can manage. While that is a sign that he's a fundamentally good and heroic person/character that wants to be, first and foremost, a protector of the innocent as opposed to a predator upon the guilty, it's a flaw in the sense that it does make it harder for him to be taken seriously. And yes, he does sometimes have no choice but to trade on that fear and unease that he unintentionally invokes in people to get them to listen or take him seriously.

Many reasons were made why he keeps joking, Spectacular #6 (The interview with JJ) he says that he jokes to calm down everyone and himself as well, which makes sense considering the kind of situations he's put in, and honestly it's actualy a good thing he keeps joking, on the times he actualy goes quiet when fighting it can be really unnerving lol.

[Cmbmool]

When you make a deal with a literal devil, your morals and flaws are tossed out the window.

[Huntsman Spider]

When you make a deal with a literal devil, your morals and flaws are tossed out the window.

Yeah, that's definitely something that has to be resolved sooner or later.

[Mister Mets]

I feel like the idea of Spidey being "flawed" or capable of making mistakes is too often just used as an excuse for when he makes dumb mistakes or needs constant help from other heroes or his supporting cast. And this extends to a lot of different characters, not just Spidey.

I'm certainly not someone who advocates for Peter to be "perfect" or incapable of making mistakes or having something bad happen to himself or someone he cares about inadvertently because of his life of Spider-Man.

But I don't think that should prevent depicting him as a capable, mature, and intelligent person who isn't a high school kid anymore or needs to fuddle around in relationships like a man-child.

There are flaws that add depth to the character and the story, but there are also flaws that can detract from people liking or enjoying a character.

You've got a good point on the fine line, but where should it be drawn?

See, at this point I really think Peter is and should be portrayed as a master of everything he does - so, he should be a competent and self-assured person, a skilled and veteran hero who doesn't mess up when saving people (though he can still be outgunned by people with more powers than him), and a prodigal scientist who can build or invent anything he needs to. The flaws we should be seeing shouldn't come from Peter making mistakes, or acting immature, or just being all around stupid(ly written). The flaws we should be seeing are the flaws which extend naturally from his character.

For example:
- Peter is definitely on the naive side, and his "no-kill" rule and just general desire to help his villains (despite being one of the things I love about his character) has backfired more than once.
- Peter neglecting his friends and family to be a hero, or Peter neglecting his own responsibilities to save others.
- Peter constantly under-estimating himself and being under-confident in his own abilities.
- Peter being an extremely emotional person which can cause him not to make rational choices.

Flaws like that are part of the character and when used properly, make the stories more interesting. Flaws like Peter forgetting to back-up billions of dollars worth of data and then deleting it all despite having already beaten the villain trying to steal it are just plain stupid.

I think some of the things you don't like can fit into the flaws that extend naturally from the character.

I do wonder a bit on that. Writers would probably have to be careful exploring those lest the character become too predictable, which would have readers wondering why he can't figure out the things they know about him.

[comicscollector]

Good question.
I think a balence in this issue is the best way,neither i want to read Spider-Man as a perfect super hero or a character that do not show any sort of self growth and progression.
I always looked as the Marvel Super Heroes as the best exemple of characters with "Fets of Clay" so to speak,so even super heroes that are capable of saving the world can make mistakes.
As long as the mistakes are not that diferent from the estabilished characterisation (Cough As Spider-Man joining the Jackal in the Clone Saga because of reasons cough) those mistakes when are not that diferent from the estabilished characterisation is something i apreciate in the stories.

[comicscollector]

Yeah, that's definitely something that has to be resolved sooner or later.

Humm,there is a old Marvel Graphic Novel story that have a story of Silver Surfer making a deal with Mephisto as well.
Interestingly enough i don´t remember as that being something that the Silver Surfer fans wanted to be resolved.
Plus with just so few times that the Spider-Man stories get a more cosmic tone i am satisfied with the way that got resolved with the One Moment in Time.

[Alan2099]

Yeah, that's definitely something that has to be resolved sooner or later.

It's been resolved. That story is over.

Go read Spider-man/Deadpool. Basically, Mephisto took away the marriage as STEP 1 in his plan to push Spider-man over the edge and corrupt him. It almost worked. Spider-man was ready to murder a villain until Deadpool stepped in and showed him how horrible that sort of thing really was. Spider-man realized how far he'd fallen and he and Deadpool had a nice long soul searching chat about it. There was hugging involved. The story is over.

Saying it's not over now is like saying The Death of Jean DeWolf storyline isn't over because she hasn't came back from the dead or that Maximum Clonage isn't over because we never resolved the fact that Spider-man was willing to kill a whole lot of people and work for the Jackal.

[darthblinx]

It's been resolved. That story is over.

Go read Spider-man/Deadpool. Basically, Mephisto took away the marriage as STEP 1 in his plan to push Spider-man over the edge and corrupt him. It almost worked. Spider-man was ready to murder a villain until Deadpool stepped in and showed him how horrible that sort of thing really was. Spider-man realized how far he'd fallen and he and Deadpool had a nice long soul searching chat about it. There was hugging involved. The story is over.

But from that story, Peter is seemingly aware something (bit o' soul) is missing from him, he just doesn't know what. Also, when recently speaking with Loki, he seems to know something important that was in his life isn't there anymore because of a similar act. That door is still open. I don't like that it is (I really don't), but it's wrong to say there's a final seal on it when there's not.

Back on topic. I actually enjoy his inability to keep up a schedule. That's actually a real struggle people of multiple classes, career paths, and lives CAN relate to. Some people see that as something he should be better about by now. Nope, not necessarily. Plenty of incredibly intelligent and successful people absolutely suck at prioritizing time (you guys read comics, right?).

I feel like Peter's been a bit too humble these past years. I'm always so happy anytime Peter gets smug about some petty bs and I'd like to see that a bit more (a smidgen). Life's gonna kick you down either way, get your cheap laughs while you can~

Less flaw and more nit picky, but Spider-Man really shouldn't be seen as such an idiot by other heroes, no matter how much he babbles. I feel Parker has definitely earned a spot at this point to be considered more often for "brain teams". I personally didn't care for the team, but I'm glad he was a member of the Future Foundation.

[Kevinroc]

It's been resolved. That story is over.

Go read Spider-man/Deadpool. Basically, Mephisto took away the marriage as STEP 1 in his plan to push Spider-man over the edge and corrupt him. It almost worked. Spider-man was ready to murder a villain until Deadpool stepped in and showed him how horrible that sort of thing really was. Spider-man realized how far he'd fallen and he and Deadpool had a nice long soul searching chat about it. There was hugging involved. The story is over.

Saying it's not over now is like saying The Death of Jean DeWolf storyline isn't over because she hasn't came back from the dead or that Maximum Clonage isn't over because we never resolved the fact that Spider-man was willing to kill a whole lot of people and work for the Jackal.

People only expect the creator to declare when a specific plot is over. So it's nice that someone brought in Mephisto for whatever reason, but that creator wasn't Quesada so people will ultimately act like it's irrelevant to OMD.

(There are a few exceptions to this, of course. But this Mephisto story in Spider-Man/Deadpool definitely isn't one of them.)

[Tony Stark]

As flawed as any human being, he has good days and he has bad days, sometimes he can handle things without much trouble, other times he can screw the whole thing and has to find a way to fix the mess that he made or just reconsider his approach because some factors that he didn't forsee. Basically like a normal person, Peter shouldn't be overly sucessfull but he ain't a loser either, somedays he would win and other he won't.

This is good. That's how I saw Peter. The guy that has a HUGE heart and makes mistakes, but at the end of the day he knew he tried his best.

[Alan2099]

People only expect the creator to declare when a specific plot is over. So it's nice that someone brought in Mephisto for whatever reason, but that creator wasn't Quesada so people will ultimately act like it's irrelevant to OMD.

(There are a few exceptions to this, of course. But this Mephisto story in Spider-Man/Deadpool definitely isn't one of them.)

The only reason people would refuse to accept this is because they don't WANT the story to be over. They just want to keep complaining about it.

[Kevinroc]

The only reason people would refuse to accept this is because they don't WANT the story to be over. They just want to keep complaining about it.

Comic companies do promote those kinds of activities. How many Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force stories have we had? Do you really think the recent Phoenix Resurrection mini marks the end of those stories?

[Alan2099]

Comic companies do promote those kinds of activities. How many Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force stories have we had? Do you really think the recent Phoenix Resurrection mini marks the end of those stories?

You used the plural there. There have been multiple stories.

Just because a story has a sequel doesn't mean the original isn't over. Just because we still have Carnage running around doesn't mean that Maximum Carnage isn't over.

[Huntsman Spider]

Humm,there is a old Marvel Graphic Novel story that have a story of Silver Surfer making a deal with Mephisto as well.
Interestingly enough i don´t remember as that being something that the Silver Surfer fans wanted to be resolved.
Plus with just so few times that the Spider-Man stories get a more cosmic tone i am satisfied with the way that got resolved with the One Moment in Time.

Yeah, Silver Surfer did trade his soul to Mephisto at one point, but it was so utterly pure that it literally burned Mephisto and he had to give it back. Probably why he settled for Spider-Man's marriage instead of his soul; he didn't want the same thing happening again.

It's been resolved. That story is over.

Go read Spider-man/Deadpool. Basically, Mephisto took away the marriage as STEP 1 in his plan to push Spider-man over the edge and corrupt him. It almost worked. Spider-man was ready to murder a villain until Deadpool stepped in and showed him how horrible that sort of thing really was. Spider-man realized how far he'd fallen and he and Deadpool had a nice long soul searching chat about it. There was hugging involved. The story is over.

Saying it's not over now is like saying The Death of Jean DeWolf storyline isn't over because she hasn't came back from the dead or that Maximum Clonage isn't over because we never resolved the fact that Spider-man was willing to kill a whole lot of people and work for the Jackal.

I read Spider-Man/Deadpool. It was very good storytelling, at least by Joe Kelly. Still not resolved for me because it frankly sticks in my craw that a deal with a literal force of evil (in-universe) was seen as "better" than just getting a divorce like actual human beings who've been pushed past their limits and endurance with each other. That, and while the story might be over for now (with OMIT "explaining" what happened when Peter and Mary Jane were supposed to be married and what happened when and after Aunt May would've died), it's never really going to be over until Peter realizes (or remembers) that he let that same literal force of evil tamper with the fabric of reality centering around himself and his loved ones just to avoid dealing with the guilt of losing his mother (figure), which said force could've easily exploited for even worse things and maybe already has.

But from that story, Peter is seemingly aware something (bit o' soul) is missing from him, he just doesn't know what. Also, when recently speaking with Loki, he seems to know something important that was in his life isn't there anymore because of a similar act. That door is still open. I don't like that it is (I really don't), but it's wrong to say there's a final seal on it when there's not.

Back on topic. I actually enjoy his inability to keep up a schedule. That's actually a real struggle people of multiple classes, career paths, and lives CAN relate to. Some people see that as something he should be better about by now. Nope, not necessarily. Plenty of incredibly intelligent and successful people absolutely suck at prioritizing time (you guys read comics, right?).

I feel like Peter's been a bit too humble these past years. I'm always so happy anytime Peter gets smug about some petty bs and I'd like to see that a bit more (a smidgen). Life's gonna kick you down either way, get your cheap laughs while you can~

Less flaw and more nit picky, but Spider-Man really shouldn't be seen as such an idiot by other heroes, no matter how much he babbles. I feel Parker has definitely earned a spot at this point to be considered more often for "brain teams". I personally didn't care for the team, but I'm glad he was a member of the Future Foundation.

Hmm, yeah, Peter's inability to keep a schedule (because of his heroic responsibilities) is a flaw that many of us in real life do have to struggle with, and I definitely agree that he shouldn't be treated like an idiot by other heroes, especially the ones who've been around long enough to see his brains in action. I can forgive the younger generation of heroes for not having been around that long to witness Spider-Man's amazing brainpower, but even then, it would be cool if he just got to have more of those moments where he shows them what he can really do and they're just as amazed as we the fans.

[comicscollector]

Yeah, Silver Surfer did trade his soul to Mephisto at one point, but it was so utterly pure that it literally burned Mephisto and he had to give it back. Probably why he settled for Spider-Man's marriage instead of his soul; he didn't want the same thing happening again.

I remembered that Silver Surfer story from MGN from the 70s,because it stands a s a good exemple of a story from the decades ago that have a similiar plot of OMD and yet i don´t remeber seeing fans complaining that this Silver Surfer story had to be resolved.
Anyways,with the storyline in OMIT and more recently the story arc in Spider-Man/Deadpool, that actually made the OMD story one of the stories with ambíguos endings to have the most sequels to have those ramifications resolved,thus me being surprised to still see fans saying the OMD is still not over.
Stories with super heroes against ultimate villains types as Mephisto or Shadow King many times have ambiguos endings thus why i was not one of the readers that after OMD was published thought there would be a sequel to that story but was nice to see how the unanswered questions about that story were pretty much all answered with the One Moment in Time story arc.
So i did look as OMD another story with a ambigous ending (something common in stories featuring villains as Mephisto) and now with OMIT and Spider-Man/Deadpool makes the story of OMD to be over IMHO.