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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Yeah, Silver Surfer did trade his soul to Mephisto at one point, but it was so utterly pure that it literally burned Mephisto and he had to give it back. Probably why he settled for Spider-Man's marriage instead of his soul; he didn't want the same thing happening again.
    I think that story you're talking about actualy from a what if. Marvel Graphic Novel #38 has Silver Surfer agreeing to sell his soul to Mephisto and that didn't happen, Mephisto was having a good time torturing Silver Surfer.

    Hmm, yeah, Peter's inability to keep a schedule (because of his heroic responsibilities) is a flaw that many of us in real life do have to struggle with, and I definitely agree that he shouldn't be treated like an idiot by other heroes, especially the ones who've been around long enough to see his brains in action. I can forgive the younger generation of heroes for not having been around that long to witness Spider-Man's amazing brainpower, but even then, it would be cool if he just got to have more of those moments where he shows them what he can really do and they're just as amazed as we the fans.
    Younger heroes could also start to respect him by him just listening to them and giving advice, 'cause once in a while I get this impression Spidey i

    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    I remembered that Silver Surfer story from MGN from the 70s,because it stands a s a good exemple of a story from the decades ago that have a similiar plot of OMD and yet i don´t remeber seeing fans complaining that this Silver Surfer story had to be resolved.
    You mean the 80's, since the MGN#38 with this Silver Surfer story was published in 88, anyway, it's different in the sense that Norrin was doing that because he feared that since Galactus had imprisioned both him and Nova in the planet, Galactus would just pick random planets to consume regardless of whether or not there were sentient beings on it, so he made the deal with Mephisto so one of them can become Galactus' herald once again to save the lifes of all of those beings. So even though he was just as moronic as Peter for making the deal (And unlike Peter, Mephisto wasn't nice to him), he was sacrificing himself to prevent a bigger tragedy, and the deal was undone in the same issue. Not to mention that deal wasn't a shitty way to change Norrin's status quo, so it's less problematic than Spidey's in more than one way.

    Anyways,with the storyline in OMIT and more recently the story arc in Spider-Man/Deadpool, that actually made the OMD story one of the stories with ambíguos endings to have the most sequels to have those ramifications resolved,thus me being surprised to still see fans saying the OMD is still not over.
    Stories with super heroes against ultimate villains types as Mephisto or Shadow King many times have ambiguos endings thus why i was not one of the readers that after OMD was published thought there would be a sequel to that story but was nice to see how the unanswered questions about that story were pretty much all answered with the One Moment in Time story arc.
    So i did look as OMD another story with a ambigous ending (something common in stories featuring villains as Mephisto) and now with OMIT and Spider-Man/Deadpool makes the story of OMD to be over IMHO.
    I don't see how OMD has an ambiguous ending, Mephisto got the deal, altered reality, and in this altered reality OMIT happened instead, seems pretty straight forward.

    I also don't see why fans want OMD undone so much, it's not like undoing it would magicaly improve the writing, and if the marriage is brought back, that Peter and MJ will be well written in the relationship, honestly, OMD doesn't even need to be undone for those two to get back together, they just can't marry because of Marvel's childish attitude towards aging Spidey.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    You mean the 80's, since the MGN#38 with this Silver Surfer story was published in 88, anyway, it's different in the sense that Norrin was doing that because he feared that since Galactus had imprisioned both him and Nova in the planet, Galactus would just pick random planets to consume regardless of whether or not there were sentient beings on it, so he made the deal with Mephisto so one of them can become Galactus' herald once again to save the lifes of all of those beings. So even though he was just as moronic as Peter for making the deal (And unlike Peter, Mephisto wasn't nice to him), he was sacrificing himself to prevent a bigger tragedy, and the deal was undone in the same issue. Not to mention that deal wasn't a shitty way to change Norrin's status quo, so it's less problematic than Spidey's in more than one way.
    Yep,the story i was mentioning is MGN#38,published in the 80´s.
    Had read this story waay back and forgot the year it was from.And yet the stories are similiar in plots.Main diference in the plot is that Silver Surfer sacrifices his soul to save planets with sentient beings by becoming Galactus Herald again while in the OMD story Spider-Man sacrifices his marriage to save Aunt May.And while the story written by Tom De Falco and Stan Lee is just better that the story written by J.M.Starencsky and Joe Quesada.There are still simalarities,but still one story is not disliked as much by some fans as is another one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I don't see how OMD has an ambiguous ending, Mephisto got the deal, altered reality, and in this altered reality OMIT happened instead, seems pretty straight forward.

    I also don't see why fans want OMD undone so much, it's not like undoing it would magicaly improve the writing, and if the marriage is brought back, that Peter and MJ will be well written in the relationship, honestly, OMD doesn't even need to be undone for those two to get back together, they just can't marry because of Marvel's childish attitude towards aging Spidey.
    The stories started right after OMD with many unanswered questions,thus why i think it was a ambigous ending.
    I find it surprising the complains about the OMD story as well,especially now with the stories of OMIT and the story arcs in Spider-Man/Deadpool.
    Considerating the quality of stories in Amazing Spider-Man ever since the start of Brand New Day i think Marvel have been right on about not having Spider-Man married in the stories.Don´t see why Peter Parker should age that much considerating that Spider-Man was the first teenager protagonist of a super hero comic book.
    Curent stories being writen with the first and most defining characteristics even decades after can make current stories to be good as well,with how great the first Spider-Man stories were the current stories can potentialy be as great as well.

  3. #33
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Hmm, yeah, Peter's inability to keep a schedule (because of his heroic responsibilities) is a flaw that many of us in real life do have to struggle with, and I definitely agree that he shouldn't be treated like an idiot by other heroes, especially the ones who've been around long enough to see his brains in action. I can forgive the younger generation of heroes for not having been around that long to witness Spider-Man's amazing brainpower, but even then, it would be cool if he just got to have more of those moments where he shows them what he can really do and they're just as amazed as we the fans.
    This might get to a controversial aspect of Dan Slott's run.

    Readers can generally understand when Peter has problems in his personal life because of his responsibilities as Spider-Man. Some might think it gets tiresome, but most will get it.

    However, Slott sometimes goes further than that, with stories with Peter doesn't initially make the best decision. That fits the character as originally depicted (who would pick fights with the Avengers, get initially elated when Flash Thompson is kidnapped by Doctor Doom, etc.) but upsets readers who want him to always be right, and who think that at this point he should have matured beyond that.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Yep,the story i was mentioning is MGN#38,published in the 80´s.
    Had read this story waay back and forgot the year it was from.And yet the stories are similiar in plots.Main diference in the plot is that Silver Surfer sacrifices his soul to save planets with sentient beings by becoming Galactus Herald again while in the OMD story Spider-Man sacrifices his marriage to save Aunt May.And while the story written by Tom De Falco and Stan Lee is just better that the story written by J.M.Starencsky and Joe Quesada.There are still simalarities,but still one story is not disliked as much by some fans as is another one.
    Like I said, OMD brings more problems than this story from Silver Surfer.

    The stories started right after OMD with many unanswered questions,thus why i think it was a ambigous ending.
    That's because of Quesada's "It's magic, we don't have to explain it" logic, but then OMIT was shown, meaning they explained what happened, lol.

    Considerating the quality of stories in Amazing Spider-Man ever since the start of Brand New Day i think Marvel have been right on about not having Spider-Man married in the stories.
    Not like those stories from BND needed him single that much, just **** like when Vin is Peter's roommate, but as far as I've seen, Vin is an annoying character so if we didn't have him, then we wouldn't be losing much.

    Don´t see why Peter Parker should age that much considerating that Spider-Man was the first teenager protagonist of a super hero comic book.
    Part of the point of the character used for him to age, not to the point of becoming too old, but to grow, and he stayed married for almost 20 years, Marvel did try to separate them or even replace Peter, but at points they accepted the marriage, then OMD happened...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    However, Slott sometimes goes further than that, with stories with Peter doesn't initially make the best decision. That fits the character as originally depicted (who would pick fights with the Avengers, get initially elated when Flash Thompson is kidnapped by Doctor Doom, etc.) but upsets readers who want him to always be right, and who think that at this point he should have matured beyond that.
    Honestly, Ditko era had characters being pompous douchebags for no reason or really dumb reasons (Worst example was Peter being annoyed that some chick is interested in him 'cause he's smart, which gave him bad memories of his relationship with Betty so he refused to go to the party she invinted him to, even though his relationship with Betty was never about him being intelligent), so I really wouldn't use it as an example of good characterization, specialy since the characters matured, specialy Peter.

  5. #35

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    minimal flaws. he's not 15 anymore, so he should reflect that, even though I guess 50% and more people think he should still be a goofy college underclassman in his social outlook.

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    I had to said that the Avengers were pretty condescending toward him when they ask him to join then, specially Thor, i'm not surprised that Peter reacted badly.

  7. #37
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    minimal flaws. he's not 15 anymore, so he should reflect that, even though I guess 50% and more people think he should still be a goofy college underclassman in his social outlook.
    I would say that he may be a "goofy kid" at heart, but that's more in the sense of him staunchly retaining an idealistic and hopeful mindset in what is a frankly deeply cynical universe, as opposed to him being an immature, irresponsible idiot like some writers unfortunately have him come off being.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #38
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    Another question is should Spider-Man eventually develop past some of his flaws?

  9. #39
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    I had to said that the Avengers were pretty condescending toward him when they ask him to join then, specially Thor, i'm not surprised that Peter reacted badly.
    Well, The Avengers can be kind of condescending sometimes .

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    I had to said that the Avengers were pretty condescending toward him when they ask him to join then, specially Thor, i'm not surprised that Peter reacted badly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, The Avengers can be kind of condescending sometimes .
    It's pretty clear the story was made specificaly for Spidey to fail, 'cause I don't think other characters had such rigorous tests to become a member (Do keep in mind their test was for him was to find and bring Hulk to them), or if they had any tests at all, honestly, that story from ASM Annual#3 is just trash, let's also keep in mind it was silver age, everyone had moments when they were pompous douchebags for no reason. Here's Spidey in Avengers#3 vol 1 as an example:

    Last edited by Lukmendes; 04-14-2018 at 07:58 PM.

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    It's pretty clear the story was made specificaly for Spidey to fail, 'cause I don't think other characters had such rigorous tests to become a member (Do keep in mind their test was for him was to find and bring Hulk to them), or if they had any tests at all, honestly, that story from ASM Annual#3 is just trash, let's also keep in mind it was silver age, everyone had moments when they were pompous douchebags for no reason. Here's Spidey in Avengers#3 vol 1 as an example:

    Oh i completly agreed with you, Marvel was trying to be the opposite woth DC when it come to team ups and that led to stupid things like that story.

  12. #42
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    Another question is should Spider-Man eventually develop past some of his flaws?
    That's a very good one, and it speaks to the issue of Spider-Man being locked into a kind of stasis where he's not allowed to really grow or develop (anymore) as a character despite how long he's been around, which leads to some of his flaws being more exaggerated or emphasized than they otherwise would be.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    minimal flaws. he's not 15 anymore, so he should reflect that
    I can count on my fingers the number of adults I've met who only have minimal flaws.

  14. #44

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    I'd say his flaws should be handled like how they handled the cast's flaws in Buffy/Angel Season 10. The Scoobies still have their problems but they got better at managing them and were able to resolve them before getting too big like in season 6.

    So Pete should still have feet of clay. He should still be able to get scared or look out for himself etc but he's not a newb anymore so he's better at handling it.

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    There is another wrinkle to the discussion which is the way the reader's initial thoughts on any scene in which Spider-Man demonstrates any kind of flawed behavior affects their understanding.

    If the reader immediately realizes the problem, they might get upset that Spidey seems to be acting out of character. A feeling might be that if I can understand that being a paparazzi is shady, Peter Parker should immediately understand it as well. This can neglect other factors (it would be easier to look at something as an outsider, when it would feel different in the pressures of the moment.)

    If the reader doesn't realize the problem with the behavior, they might get upset at the implication that the writer thinks their understanding of behavioral norms is wrong. I could feel that Peter was a teenager whose uncle was killed; of course, he wasn't obligated to stay with his recently widowed aunt when he went to chase the burglar.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

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