How Flawed Should Peter Parker Be?

[Snoop Dogg]

I thought up a little essay about this, but I'm too lazy to write it down. So I'll just leave the prompt and wait for takes to come in so I can respond to them while yelling at the phone in front of concerned bystanders.

How flawed should Peter Parker be in relation to succeeding or failing to live up to the principle of great power and great responsibility?

[rward777]

I thought up a little essay about this, but I'm too lazy to write it down. So I'll just leave the prompt and wait for takes to come in so I can respond to them while yelling at the phone in front of concerned bystanders.

How flawed should Peter Parker be in relation to succeeding or failing to live up to the principle of great power and great responsibility?

Not as flawed as the Dan Slott Peter Parker. The current one is just fine.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

At the end of the day Spider-Man's a comedic story and not a tragic one. He is not by any measure the superhero with the hardest life nor is the one with the most screwups or the one with the most dead loved ones. Hank Pym is by far the guy who can screw up a cup of coffee, Daredevil is suffering personified, the Punisher is a profoundly unhappy man, Iron Man is an alcoholic, and the X-Men are constantly being genocided or surviving attempts to end their species. Parker Luck has nothing on what Jessica Jones went through at the hands of Kilgrave.

Spider-Man's story has the same win and lose ratio you see in Batman and Superman. The only difference is that he is way more sensitive and way more poor. It's a story of a guy who is a little too hard on himself but who isn't the screwup he thinks he is. If you lose that nuance then you ruin the story.

Some people online and others such as Tom Brevoort in his asinine manifesto have said that Peter becoming Spider-Man is a mistake and that he overreacted. That goes against AF#15 completely. Becoming Spider-Man allowed Peter to be the best version of himself. I gather that some writers think being Spider-Man was a mistake but to me if you think that then I don't think you should write superhero stories. Or maybe you think only rich people should try and be superheroes.

[NC_Yankee]

Not as flawed as the Dan Slott Peter Parker. The current one is just fine.

I agree 100%. No one expects Peter ( or any person ( real or fiction)), to be perfect. What we do not like is him becoming a "Charlie Brown-type" loser like he was under Dan Slott. Spencer has Pete done right ( especially when compared to Dan Slott).

[Agent Z]

About the same as Spencer's version or the Homecoming one.

At the end of the day Spider-Man's a comedic story and not a tragic one. He is not by any measure the superhero with the hardest life nor is the one with the most screwups or the one with the most dead loved ones. Hank Pym is by far the guy who can screw up a cup of coffee, Daredevil is suffering personified, the Punisher is a profoundly unhappy man, Iron Man is an alcoholic, and the X-Men are constantly being genocided or surviving attempts to end their species. Parker Luck has nothing on what Jessica Jones went through at the hands of Kilgrave.

Spider-Man's story has the same win and lose ratio you see in Batman and Superman. The only difference is that he is way more sensitive and way more poor. It's a story of a guy who is a little too hard on himself but who isn't the screwup he thinks he is. If you lose that nuance then you ruin the story.

Some people online and others such as Tom Brevoort in his asinine manifesto have said that Peter becoming Spider-Man is a mistake and that he overreacted. That goes against AF#15 completely. Becoming Spider-Man allowed Peter to be the best version of himself. I gather that some writers think being Spider-Man was a mistake but to me if you think that then I don't think you should write superhero stories. Or maybe you think only rich people should try and be superheroes.

I mean, do you hear of many stories about people who become masked vigilantes after unintentionally causing the death of their uncles?

And Peter was Spider-Man when he made that mistake so how did becoming Spider-Man make him "the best version of himself"?

[Mister Mets]

At the end of the day Spider-Man's a comedic story and not a tragic one. He is not by any measure the superhero with the hardest life nor is the one with the most screwups or the one with the most dead loved ones. Hank Pym is by far the guy who can screw up a cup of coffee, Daredevil is suffering personified, the Punisher is a profoundly unhappy man, Iron Man is an alcoholic, and the X-Men are constantly being genocided or surviving attempts to end their species. Parker Luck has nothing on what Jessica Jones went through at the hands of Kilgrave.

Spider-Man's story has the same win and lose ratio you see in Batman and Superman. The only difference is that he is way more sensitive and way more poor. It's a story of a guy who is a little too hard on himself but who isn't the screwup he thinks he is. If you lose that nuance then you ruin the story.

Some people online and others such as Tom Brevoort in his asinine manifesto have said that Peter becoming Spider-Man is a mistake and that he overreacted. That goes against AF#15 completely. Becoming Spider-Man allowed Peter to be the best version of himself. I gather that some writers think being Spider-Man was a mistake but to me if you think that then I don't think you should write superhero stories. Or maybe you think only rich people should try and be superheroes.

That does not seem to be an accurate summary of what Brevoort said in the manifesto.

https://boards.fireden.net/co/last/50/99744238/

Brevoort's main takeaways on the topic were that Spider-Man is Peter Parker first, as opposed to a system where Peter is Spider-Man most of the time, and squeezes in a life around being Spidey, and being Spider-Man is a sacrifice for Peter. Within the mainfesto, there's nothing about Spider-Man being an overreaction.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I mean, do you hear of many stories about people who become masked vigilantes after unintentionally causing the death of their uncles?

Reed Richards turned his best friend into a rock golem all for the sake of joyriding a space-flight. Doom blaming Reed wrongly for his condition allows him to be Red's bad conscience since what is false with Doom is true for Grimm. Iron Man was a merchant of death until the age of 40. And let's not get into the mountain of regret that is Pym's life.

And Peter was Spider-Man when he made that mistake so how did becoming Spider-Man make him "the best version of himself"?

Do I need to specify this? Uncle Ben died because spider-man didn't use his powers to stop a crook. Af#15 is not an especially complex story but overall it says that Peter should be a superhero and that he would be a better person if he were one and remained one. If you decide like Brevoort and others that Peter becoming spider-man is a mistake you are undermining the point of his origin and the closing caption in particular. Peter would not be worthy of the respect of Captain Stacy, the love of Mary Jane, the respect of Captain America, the friendship of Johnny Storm, the sacrifice of Flash Thompson if he were not Spider-Man and the person who lived up to the great responsibility that comes with his power.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That does not seem to be an accurate summary of what Brevoort said in the manifesto.

https://boards.fireden.net/co/last/50/99744238/

Brevoort said that responsibility was invented to justify the marriage and spidey growing up. That is completely inaccurate.

On his tumble he said this: 'He continues to operate on his own, because becoming Spider-Man was ultimately a childish decision, a selfish decision, about personal atonement. '

That is a skewed take utterly contrary to Lee and Ditko's origin. Peter being selfish led to Ben's death. If you are saying others then I think your reading comprehension is rusty.

Come on is that the character that Timothy Harrison spoke to for his make a wish. https://brevoortformspring.tumblr.co...r-man-is-about

[Frontier]

I swear there was already a thread for this...

[Mister Mets]

I swear there was already a thread for this...

Merged with that thread.

I can understand why Snoop Dogg didn't find it. There's about ten pages of results for the word "flawed."

[Mister Mets]

Brevoort said that responsibility was invented to justify the marriage and spidey growing up. That is completely inaccurate.

On his tumble he said this: 'He continues to operate on his own, because becoming Spider-Man was ultimately a childish decision, a selfish decision, about personal atonement. '

That is a skewed take utterly contrary to Lee and Ditko's origin. Peter being selfish led to Ben's death. If you are saying others then I think your reading comprehension is rusty.

Come on is that the character that Timothy Harrison spoke to for his make a wish. https://brevoortformspring.tumblr.co...r-man-is-about

You referred to the manifesto. I linked to the manifesto, and made it clear that my comment was about the manifesto.

If you want to talk about another comment of his, that's okay, but the context changes.

It's also outside of the question of how flawed we think Peter should be, except for those who think being a superhero is an example of his flaw (which may what Brevoort is getting at. From the context of our world, someone using special abilities to commit vigilante justice is flawed.)

[Agent Z]

Reed Richards turned his best friend into a rock golem all for the sake of joyriding a space-flight. Doom blaming Reed wrongly for his condition allows him to be Red's bad conscience since what is false with Doom is true for Grimm. Iron Man was a merchant of death until the age of 40. And let's not get into the mountain of regret that is Pym's life.

I should have specified I mean real life stories.

Do I need to specify this? Uncle Ben died because spider-man didn't use his powers to stop a crook. Af#15 is not an especially complex story but overall it says that Peter should be a superhero and that he would be a better person if he were one and remained one. If you decide like Brevoort and others that Peter becoming spider-man is a mistake you are undermining the point of his origin and the closing caption in particular. Peter would not be worthy of the respect of Captain Stacy, the love of Mary Jane, the respect of Captain America, the friendship of Johnny Storm, the sacrifice of Flash Thompson if he were not Spider-Man and the person who lived up to the great responsibility that comes with his power.

Just how responsible Peter is being as Spider-Man is very much up for debate. Especially given it has made it next to impossible to actually help May or take care of his family. It isn’t like there isn’t other ways to get these people’s respect.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I should have specified I mean real life stories.

Not sure what you mean then? Since superheroes don't exist in real life. If you mean whether real life heroes are flawed or did something like this then we are probably going off topic.

Just how responsible Peter is being as Spider-Man is very much up for debate. Especially given it has made it next to impossible to actually help May or take care of his family. It isn’t like there isn’t other ways to get these people’s respect.

That's more in the realm of hard to be good then anything else. In a world of supervillains Spider-Man needs to step in and save the day. Dr Octopus, Goblin, lizard, chameleon, lizard, sandman, electro, vulture would exist with and without Spider-Man.

Peter did Graduate high school and college with good grades after all. He isn't doing too bad. Also since sliding timescale means he is a millennial now even if the comics character doesn't feel like a millennial then Peter being jobless and so on is not hard to understand given the recession. The PS4 game captures that well.

In either case Peter will never be chased out of NY. So it's never actually going to get to that fire a point. So it's moot in any case.

[Agent Z]

Not sure what you mean then? Since superheroes don't exist in real life. If you mean whether real life heroes are flawed or did something like this then we are probably going off topic.

I bring it up because your stance was that Peter becoming Spider-Man wasn’t an overreaction and my argument is that becoming a vigilante is not exactly a rational response. Regardless of whether or not superheroes exist.

That's more in the realm of hard to be good then anything else. In a world of supervillains Spider-Man needs to step in and save the day. Dr Octopus, Goblin, lizard, chameleon, lizard, sandman, electro, vulture would exist with and without Spider-Man.

In a world of other superheroes, especially ones that live in the same city, Spider-Man isn’t really needed all that much.

Peter did Graduate high school and college with good grades after all. He isn't doing too bad. Also since sliding timescale means he is a millennial now even if the comics character doesn't feel like a millennial then Peter being jobless and so on is not hard to understand given the recession. The PS4 game captures that well.

In either case Peter will never be chased out of NY. So it's never actually going to get to that fire a point. So it's moot in any case.

Him constantly being jobless was a thing before the recession and they’ll keep finding ways to keep him that way regardless of what the economic climate is like in the real world. And in the comics, his lack of any financial success has frequently been attributed to his being Spider-Man. If he managed to graduate high school and college in spite of all the time being Spider-Man would have eaten up, then it should be easy enough for the writers to let him have a job.

[Scott Taylor]

As flawed as serves the story.

Vince Lombardi said "its not whether you get knocked down, its whether you get up again." To me, Peter can fail quite miserably. But what differentiates him is that he makes it right, he always goes back and makes it right.

So I have a very high tolerance for his failure levels, so long as the story is still good and he recognizes and fixes them. The only exception should be the rare thing that he can't fix, like if a loved one dies (Gwen or Uncle Ben come to mind). But those exceptions only work if they serve a very good story. Most of what makes Spider-Man work, for me, is seeing how he reacts to failure rather than seeing him not fail in the first place.