Squadron Supreme of America

[Reviresco]

Good point about Namor being too popular a character to be in a Squadron series. Namor is an established B/C-level character. Making him a simple analogue for another company's stronger B-level character might undermine Marvel's brand.

Well, Robinson didn't think so ... but clearly he was wrong.

Considering how many times that Namor has been a member of the Avengers, despite attacking coastal cities every few years, it is not too hard to assume he would join the Squadron (discounting the business problem with that). Or, how about Magneto and the X-Men?

Namor has zero reason to join the SS. The SS are not like the Avengers. Even if the Avengers are written stupidly at times, they aren't intended to be written like a bunch of out of control, outside the legal, outside the heroic, SS wackos.

the brand is weak as hell. that's why Namor is controlling water now, grew his hair out, and put on the water conan outfit.

Absolutely not true. "Water Conan outfit"??? What Conan outfit are you looking at? How does that new goth outfit look more like Conan's loincloth, than Namor's original iconic green speedo? I seriously doubt Namor's new powers have anything to do with "improving" the brand. There's clearly plot reasons for the "improvements" that haven't been revealed.

IF Namor's brand is weak, it's because of Hickman's treatment of the character through AvX to Secret Wars, just to make an interesting foil for Black Panther.

if he's going to make it to B-level, he better do so before Black Adam also appears in live-action. because the reality of who he is doesn't matter; only the perception. and the perception will be that he's a wannabe Aquaman and/or Black Adam. just like Doctor Doom is derivative of Darth Vader because of their exposure outside of comics. doesn't matter who came first.

I've never seen anyone say Dr. Doom is a copy of Darth Vader. I've seen folks point out the opposite.

Reality is far more important than perception. Namor is the OG. The fact that more and more characters are ripping off his qualities and aspects just prove that he's a strong and unique "brand."

he doesn't need the Squadron. but I don't see his popularity level increasing any time soon. definitely won't happen by hanging out with what's left of the Invaders. they are less and less relevant the further we get away from WWI and II.

Well, at least you admit Namor doesn't need the SS, now.

Sooo, the growing irrelevance of WW1 (which has nothing to do with Namor or the Invaders) is why Wonder Woman's movie was set during WWI?? I seriously doubt WWII will ever become irrelevant. It's repeatedly being invoked every single day in today's news.

The new Invaders book is great. Easily one of the best portrayals of Namor in a decade, maybe two. And again, a team that deal with the bonds between soldiers and the effects of war is especially relevant today in America.

Wait, I thought Namor preceded Aquaman by a couple of years? In any event, you're right, it's not entirely outside the realm that Namor could join the team under the right circumstances. I just think it would still be difficult for any person to work with someone that's actually killed him. Even if they restored them back to life. Justified or not, I think any living sentient creature would find it hard to trust their killer. But maybe that could be part of the group tension. Who knows?

Just because Namor works with various groups / people, it doesn't mean he TRUSTS them.

happens all of the time in the x-verse. this wouldn't be any weirder than T'challa and Namor being on a team. it's not like they killed him for sport. they were avenging others; misguidedly or not. in this particular case (and assuming that these aren't all new characters), Namor would not have the moral authority. they met him on his own terms. he flooded Wakanda for similar reasons.

Glad to see you remember the real reason for the SS killing Namor. But the Atlanteans had nothing to do with their revenge.

What are you talking about? Phoenix Namor didn't flood Wakanda for revenge. And what do you mean by met the SS "on his own terms"? He and Atlantis were attacked without ANY provocation and by surprise.

And Namor is always going to have more moral authority than the SS. He's the ruler of the Atlanteans and responsible for their welfare, specifically by the fiat of their god.

Really? (I really have not been keeping up on Namor.)

Okay then. I retract everything that I said about Namor above. They probably should put him on the Squadron.

And, if it needs pointing out, that is really stupid. A 7 year old would see through what Marvel is doing. "They made him like Aquaman and are ripping off Aquaman." And, from there, it is only a short jump to "that is a rip off of Superman".

Namor would actually drag the Squadron down. Let that sink in. One of Marvel's first characters, a character that has headlined series by top-flight talent could actually drag a team of z-listers down.

LOL! I'm sorry, but that's simply ridiculous. Namor has improved almost every book he's been in for the last 2 decades, and probably more. Namor is always given the best lines. He's always been used as a foil to liven up any plot or relationship. Most the writers that use him have remarked on what great character he is and how much fun they had writing him. It's what led to this mistaken idea that Namor works best in a group / adversary role.

Since Watkin's post about Namor was mostly wrong, these conclusions are also wrong. Arguably, Robinson's awful treatment of Namor in the SS's first issue contributed to turning people off of SS, but that's the opposite of what you are saying.

[mace11]

Squadron Supreme series a few years ago needed to job Namor and the Atlanteans out to help push the SS book, so he trashed the character and his city in the first issue.

In fair fights by the way superman has never lost to aquaman,so it makes sense why namor would lose to hyperion.

Yes, because lasers have worked so well on Namor in the 75+ years previous. <insert sarcasm>

Well in flashpoint kal-el cut off aquaman arm with his heat vision,so hickmen's new hyperion cut namors head off.
Both were out water by the way so maybe it makes it easier for superman and hyperion to do that i guess.

Marcus Milton (Earth-13034)

Atomic Vision: Hyperion is capable of firing beams of highly intensive heat from his eyes that's often referred to as Atomic Vision, as well as several others. The full limits of his Atomic Vision isn't known, but it can be presumed that is capable of generating up to at least 12,000 degrees Fahrenheit like the Atomic Visions of his alternate-reality counterparts and is powerful enough to kill someone as resilient as Namor

[Mike_Murdock]

You don't remember, cause it was forgettable and made little sense. It did happen in Squadron Supreme #1.

In that case, I don't remember it because I didn't read it. There's definitely a hint at it in the preview issue because that's the only thing I read.

[Michael Watkins]

Namor has zero reason to join the SS. The SS are not like the Avengers.

that's where the memory alteration would come into play. you really should read more closely.

Absolutely not true. "Water Conan outfit"??? What Conan outfit are you looking at? How does that new goth outfit look more like Conan's loincloth, than Namor's original iconic green speedo? I seriously doubt Namor's new powers have anything to do with "improving" the brand. There's clearly plot reasons for the "improvements" that haven't been revealed.

you are deluded if you do not see the Aquaman influence.

IF Namor's brand is weak, it's because of Hickman's treatment of the character through AvX to Secret Wars, just to make an interesting foil for Black Panther.

conversely, Namor would be in limbo if not for Hickman. technically, he didn't deserve a seat at the Illuminati table. he's not that bright. Emma Frost proved that he was quite easily manipulated.

I've never seen anyone say Dr. Doom is a copy of Darth Vader. I've seen folks point out the opposite.

you've seen comic book readers point it out. the moment Marvel gives the character legitimacy by using him in a live-action movie, the comparisons will come. bet on it.

Reality is far more important than perception.

tell it to anyone falsely accused of a crime.

Well, at least you admit Namor doesn't need the SS, now.

why would he need them? he's a ultra-nationalist villain at the moment.

Sooo, the growing irrelevance of WW1 (which has nothing to do with Namor or the Invaders) is why Wonder Woman's movie was set during WWI??

no. Captain America is why Wonder Woman's movie was set during a world war. also influenced the makeup of her little band of soldiers. could have been any conflict, really.

The new Invaders book is great.

no it isn't.

Glad to see you remember the real reason for the SS killing Namor.

the real reason wasn't a mystery. they wanted to bond as a team. and Nighthawk promised to honor their individual missions. Spectrum's desire to avenge her people (that Namor helped murder) met both criteria. I call it misguided because it didn't lead to the desired group cohesion. that hypocrite Hyperion (who did the actual execution) very quickly turned on Nighthawk when the writer's fan crush Hammond showed up.

But the Atlanteans had nothing to do with their revenge.

you assume that it wasn't two separate attacks. there have been multiple attacks on the surface world; all ending in casualties. it was a running gag with Namor (literally, She-Hulk & Ben Grimm have referenced it). all of those floods were on behalf of the Atlantean people. they were acted out by whichever warlord was leading them. the Squadron gave them a chance to evacuate. then they destroyed their cities to send a very clear message, " the surface world will no longer put up with your ****" then they killed Namor because Spectrum demanded it. this isn't complicated. the atlanteans were not innocent. namor was not innocent.

What are you talking about? Phoenix Namor didn't flood Wakanda for revenge.

you're right. I rescind my statement. Namor did it for lulz. and he very loudly said that he'd do it again. Namor is a monster. and now the Avengers have egg on their collective faces. they hunted the Squadron. and now Stingray is dead or in the hospital (who knows or cares?).

And Namor is always going to have more moral authority than the SS. He's the ruler of the Atlanteans and responsible for their welfare, specifically by the fiat of their god.

you're not talking about moral authority. you're talking that deluded cult crap that allows North Korea's leader to torture and kill some girl who rejected him. Namor organized a murder party. he rode shotgun with Terrax, Thanos, and his band of cosmic serial killers. he personally murdered alternate reality versions of heroes. and then he ran crying to Doom after things got out of hand. and somehow you think that he should skate with no consequences. you seem to think that he's somehow morally superior to the Squadron; a group who devoted themselves to defending someone else's world. Nighthawk died fighting Hydra during Secret Empire. how is he less a hero than that thug Namor?

[danielsan52]

I was commenting on the previous posts which suggested that Namor could work with the Squadron, possibly joining them as their "Aquaman." I didn't think that would be plausible, even if they're a different alternate Earth Squadron, if we were talking about the same Namor that died at Hyperion's hands. (Thanks for the additional info, by the way.) it now looks like we're talking about a different timeline Namor. I still doubt that he'd work with the team, but Marvel has concocted more ridiculous plots than that, I suppose.

I'd rather see a 616 Amphibian join.

[CentralPower]

It's not a different Namor. Have no idea on the Squadron. And it isn't just killing him, that Namor has to forgive. It's the destruction of Atlantis and killing of his people.

True. But, Namor seemed fine with it by the end of the Robinson "Squadron Supreme" series. So, it is already over and done.

I agree. Namor does easily overshadow them in so many ways and I've always thought they were extraneous. If you want to read DC analogs, go read the DC originals.

The best use of the Squadron was the 1985 series by Gruenwald....which is really sad when you stop and ponder it. The best use of the characters was in the Bronze Age by a guy whose writing was heavily influenced by the Silver Age.

(The Hickman and Ewing Hyperion was in better comics. But, it was not a Squadron series.)


The Gruenwald series worked because it was "the best Justice League run that DC will never publish". In the mid-80s, DC was timid with the main characters. They wanted to get away form the blandness of the Silver Age after "Crisis on Infinite Earths". But, there were still some directions they would not take with their main characters. (The Giffen-era Justice League focused mostly on c and d list characters. The Byrne and post-Byrne Superman comics were readable and competent, but largely forgettable and often characterized as bland.)

A story about analogues for the Justice League take over the world, with the best of intentions and disastrous results was ground-breaking, and exactly the sort of thing that DC would not publish.

By 1990 or so, DC was willing to consider variations of their characters with the "Elseworlds" imprint. "Red Son" is everything that made "Squadron Supreme" good, minus the Bronze Age gibbering.

And, this gets back to a question that I consistently ask about the Squadron. Is there really a need for a Squadron Supreme in 2019? Can they be more than just clowns or cannon fodder?

We were promised it was all for a reason and would be a great Namor centric plotline, but then Robinson decided he'd rather write about Weirdworld and never got to his allegedly epic Namor storyline, yet again, and the book didn't sell, so we got the lamest, nonsensical ending, and an issue or maybe two of Namor brought back.

The Robinson series had a cross-over dropped in the middle. Just as it was getting back on track, it was cancelled. I am more inclined to blame Marvel than Robinson. But, either way, that series is skippable (unless you *really* love the Squadron). Namor's return and reconciling with the Squadron was a blunt effort to move on from a failed series. I am content to just move on from it.

Aquaman is DC's Namor. Namor is the OG.

But, who has the movie?

Reality is far more important than perception. Namor is the OG. The fact that more and more characters are ripping off his qualities and aspects just prove that he's a strong and unique "brand."

Facts are great and all. But, when selling entertainment, perception matters.

Nobody gives a damn about Namor. Aquaman has a movie, and Marvel is more likely to have Namor fallow that lead than DC is to follow Marvel's lead with Namor's comic appearances.

I seriously doubt WWII will ever become irrelevant. It's repeatedly being invoked every single day in today's news.

Give it maybe 15, 20 years tops.

World War I was a big damn deal until the 80s, when it started fading from living memory.

LOL! I'm sorry, but that's simply ridiculous. Namor has improved almost every book he's been in for the last 2 decades, and probably more. Namor is always given the best lines. He's always been used as a foil to liven up any plot or relationship. Most the writers that use him have remarked on what great character he is and how much fun they had writing him. It's what led to this mistaken idea that Namor works best in a group / adversary role.

Then explain why Namor gets fewer series than, and is now taking cues from, Aquaman.

[Reviresco]

In fair fights by the way superman has never lost to aquaman,so it makes sense why namor would lose to hyperion.


Well in flashpoint kal-el cut off aquaman arm with his heat vision,so hickmen's new hyperion cut namors head off.
Both were out water by the way so maybe it makes it easier for superman and hyperion to do that i guess.

Marcus Milton (Earth-13034)

Namor is NOT Aquaman. Just because DC copied Namor, that doesn't mean Aquaman has all of Namor's powers, or vice versa.

Namor was recently shown to take a direct hit from the Nagaski A-bomb. I think he can take a hit from laser vision.

[mace11]

Namor is NOT Aquaman. Just because DC copied Namor, that doesn't mean Aquaman has all of Namor's powers, or vice versa.

Namor was recently shown to take a direct hit from the Nagaski A-bomb. I think he can take a hit from laser vision.

Namor did not have the power upgrade at that time.
Like you said his power upgrade is recent.
Aquaman has had a power upgrade too in recent years.

[Beetle]

And now that I think about it, with Jane becoming the winged Valkyrie, maybe she can be the counterpart to Hawkgirl and join the Squadron Supreme, too.

I would like Skylark to get some play

[protege]

I would like Skylark to get some play

Or songbird, maybe?

[Reviresco]

Namor did not have the power upgrade at that time.
Like you said his power upgrade is recent.
Aquaman has had a power upgrade too in recent years.

The Nagaskai A-bomb incident had nothing to do with Jason Aaron's and Zdarsky's power upgrades. It was in a recent comic, but the story actually took place in 1946, well before Robinson had Namor murdered by laser vision.

But Namor has been immune to radiation since at least his Silver Age first appearance in FF 4. He's taken direct hits from bombs and missiles before, as well as a tsunami causing headon collision with the Hulk. And he's fire proof. Also Robinson himself showed Namor taking cosmic eyeblasts from Ikaris, with no real damage.





And Hyperion's weakness is magic, and Namor is a magical creature, so his powers shouldn't have worked that well against Namor, just as Robinson had Hyperion having problems with his powers in Weirdworld, because of magic.

[pageturner]

I don't know what to expect now that Mephisto is involved. This doesn't seem like his m.o. And what's his connection to Coulson.

This is right on the heels of his appearance in Champions. Make me wonder if ol Red will be in the center of something soon.

[protege]

The Nagaskai A-bomb incident had nothing to do with Jason Aaron's and Zdarsky's power upgrades. It was in a recent comic, but the story actually took place in 1946, well before Robinson had Namor was murdered by laser vision.

But Namor has been immune to radiation since at least his Silver Age first appearance in FF 4. He's taken direct hits from bombs and missiles before, as well as a tsunami causing headon collision with the Hulk. And he's fire proof. Also Robinson himself showed Namor taking cosmic eyeblasts from Ikaris, with no real damage.





And Hyperion's weakness is magic, and Namor is a magical creature, so his powers shouldn't have worked that well against Namor, just as Robinson had Hyperion having problems with his powers in Weirdworld, because of magic.

Seriously? They couldn’t come up with something more original for hyperion to be weak against?

[mace11]

The Nagaskai A-bomb incident had nothing to do with Jason Aaron's and Zdarsky's power upgrades. It was in a recent comic, but the story actually took place in 1946, well before Robinson had Namor was murdered by laser vision.

But Namor has been immune to radiation since at least his Silver Age first appearance in FF 4. He's taken direct hits from bombs and missiles before, as well as a tsunami causing headon collision with the Hulk. And he's fire proof. Also Robinson himself showed Namor taking cosmic eyeblasts from Ikaris, with no real damage.

And Hyperion's weakness is magic, and Namor is a magical creature, so his powers shouldn't have worked that well against Namor, just as Robinson had Hyperion having problems with his powers in Weirdworld, because of magic.

I don't think magic powers work that way for hyperion from someone like namor if he has any magic powers at all.
Punching or blasting namor will not make hyperion's powers weaker.

He could still fight someone like namor and his powers would work fine.
It's canon after all and i think hyperion was using his atomic vision a different way then Ikaris.

His atomic vision was used for cutting the neck off if you look at the pic, plus hyperion was going for the kill and the atomic vision hyperion use clearly was a stronger blast then Ikaris.
Anyway if superman could use his heat vision to cut off aquaman arm in flashpoint at that time,then hyperion could do it to namor too at that time.

Post flash-point aquaman has had power upgrades after flash-point and recent namor has had a power upgrade.
By the way namor did not have any magic powers when he fought hyperion.
The only thing magic namor has is the trident like aquaman's.


Trident of Neptune | Marvel Database | FANDOM powered by Wikia
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Trident_of_Neptune


Note- it was not known if this version of hyperion had any weakness to magic until after he blasted namor in the later issues of Robinson's squadron supreme.

[mace11]

Seriously? They couldn’t come up with something more original for hyperion to be weak against?

Trivia

Hyperion was created as a pastiche of DC Comics' Superman, though other Marvel characters such as Gladiator and Sentry are also expies of Superman.

Weaknesses

Solar Energy Depletion: If Hyperion is cut off from the source of his strength, nourishing solar photons particles from the sun, then his strength and abilities gradually are weakened, ultimately making him vulnerable. Iron Man used sterile neutrinos, through dark radiation, to countermand Hyperion's radiation.

Magic: Hyperion is particularly susceptible to magic.

Note-superman has more weaknesses then hyperion.