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  1. #166
    Mighty Member KangMiRae's Avatar
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    Alright, folks. Apparently a mock up was made for this.

    Admiral of a fleet of shipsórelationships!
    Comicbooks are nothing to me without ships and romance!

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexCampy89 View Post
    Stupid question

    Why can't Peter and MJ just marry and stay married for ever?

    I mean, she is a well received character, she is the most iconic love interest of Spider-Man, she knows his double identity and is supportive of his heroics.

    Peter is supposed to be a scientist nerd, not Hugh Hefner in his prime.
    They can. Spider-Man can be whatever Marvel wants him to be. Currently, they want him to be a young person finding his way in the world. They feel that is better conveyed if he is unmarried.

    Several Marvel editors and writers have spoken about this over the decades, much of which can be found online.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexCampy89 View Post
    The amount of women in his life is astonishing and, quite frankly, out of character.
    There have been thousands of Spider-Man comics published over 57 years. Taken as a whole, it doesn't make sense that he could have had all of those adventures, all those life changing events. If you start counting the Christmases it all falls apart.

    That being said though, Peter has had sex with maybe 5 or 6 people in his lifetime. That's not a high number.

  3. #168
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    There have been thousands of Spider-Man comics published over 57 years. Taken as a whole, it doesn't make sense that he could have had all of those adventures, all those life changing events.
    An excuse that works for DC, but will never work for Marvel. Marvel was founded on the promise by Stan Lee, Kirby, Ditko and others that all these adventures can be taken as a whole.

    That being said though, Peter has had sex with maybe 5 or 6 people in his lifetime. That's not a high number.
    Before Peter got married, he had sex with two women (Felicia, MJ) and he married one of them. That takes place over a 24 year period as per the current timeline and the idea that Peter has aged at most 10 years.

    But the entire Slott and BND era takes place in comics time somewhere like a year. As time passes, that will be contracted to less than that. In that time alone, Peter has slept with 6 women and that does make it, for a normal average person exceptional. Especially in comparison to Randy Robertson (who's supposed to be even less lucky in love than Peter as pet Spencer's ASM #27-28 in Peter's narration), Flash Thompson and Harry.

  4. #169
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Currently, they want him to be a young person finding his way in the world. They feel that is better conveyed if he is unmarried.

    Several Marvel editors and writers have spoken about this over the decades, much of which can be found online.
    So, are they repeatedly implying that married characters are incapable of still wanting to find their way in the world?

  5. #170
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    So, are they repeatedly implying that married characters are incapable of still wanting to find their way in the world?
    I mean, I kind of get it - You got someone to agree to sleep with you on a regular basis for as long as you both may live, what else is there to find in the world after that?

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    So, are they repeatedly implying that married characters are incapable of still wanting to find their way in the world?
    yes.

    and also repeatedly implying that women are fine as trophies to lust after but if you marry one you should file for social security as your life is pretty much over. there are no other benefits or reasons to be married. put a downpayment on your retirement condo because no matter how young you are you become sixty years old when you marry.

  7. #172
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    yes.

    and also repeatedly implying that women are fine as trophies to lust after but if you marry one you should file for social security as your life is pretty much over. there are no other benefits or reasons to be married. put a downpayment on your retirement condo because no matter how young you are you become sixty years old when you marry.
    In other words the wisdom and logic of boomer and post-boomer boomer wannabe generations (which is probably where Quesada fits) passed as wisdom. Bad enough that they screwed up the planet and sucked the welfare system dry for the generations that came after but they also had to ruin Spider-Man in the process.

    The idea that teenagers can't relate to older characters doesn't explain why the MCU is centered on a 40 year old character played by a guy of the same age who was a Hollywood has-been who appeared in obscure indie titles until he hit paydirt. Nor the fact that why the imbecile teenage Spider-Man of the MCU doesn't make as much money as the 40 year old Black Panther.

  8. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The real problem is that ''To Have and to Hold'' is a classic story, showing up on many lists and its imagery and so on being referred to multiple times. Everyone knows that "To Have and to Hold" is about the marriage. So I don't think you can pluck stuff from that and refer to it, and make people forget that it's a story about the marriage.

    Allusions and references work to remind people of a previous context to better understand the current one. Spencer is reminding readers that the marriage happened multiple times in his run. It's what he's clearly doing. I am amazed that this has to be spelled out and mentioned here.
    I haven't argued any point about ASM 1 or 29 not having allusions to a previous context. Although even if you think the allusion to the marriage is immensely important, these are still stories that do require Peter and MJ to not to be married. These would actually be stories that require One More Day to exist (it is perfectly fine to think the tradeoff is a poor one.)

    If the context were different, these would remain decent stories. If the published Spider-Man context reflected the post-OMD continuity (IE- if as far as readers knew Spider-Man had never been married, although he and MJ had come close at some point) #1 and #29 would still be good issues in Petr and MJ's relationships.


    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    if asm 29 is doesn't work if peter & mj are married because it would be a different story then to have and to hold doesn't work if they are single because it would be a different story. if mj is just the girlfriend in to have and to hold then she has no legal ties to peter and the stakes aren't as high. shield's threats are weaker. "he's my boyfriend and you're just some dude" is not "he's my husband and you're just some dude." the gist of the story is what marriage means to mj and peter so that would change.

    if asm 29 has a basic gist, it's we know peter & mj used to be married and it was wiped out by omd. the impact of the last page depends on people knowing the marriage existed.
    The ending of ASM #29 was that Peter wanted to give MJ a wedding ring but couldn't because he was busy as Spider-Man. Is there any kind of equivalent to that scene that would work if he and MJ are already married?

  9. #174
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post

    The ending of ASM #29 was that Peter wanted to give MJ a wedding ring but couldn't because he was busy as Spider-Man. Is there any kind of equivalent to that scene that would work if he and MJ are already married?
    A Supaidaman Marveller keychain that you can switch into Leopardon.
    Our main character, a socially awkward outcast, gains newfound confidence and arrogance before committing a string of horrid acts. He then wears a fancy suit and proceeds to dance like a maniac to music that isn't actually there playing around him.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    An excuse that works for DC, but will never work for Marvel. Marvel was founded on the promise by Stan Lee, Kirby, Ditko and others that all these adventures can be taken as a whole.
    I disagree. 57 years and thousands of stories later, it doesn't fully work as a cohesive narrative taken as a whole. Spider-Man couldn't possibly have experienced all of those adventures in a span of just 10-15 years, and stories that made sense in a 1960s setting don't make sense in a 10-15 years ago setting. That's all okay, it's one of the magic tricks of comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Before Peter got married, he had sex with two women (Felicia, MJ) and he married one of them. That takes place over a 24 year period as per the current timeline and the idea that Peter has aged at most 10 years.

    But the entire Slott and BND era takes place in comics time somewhere like a year. As time passes, that will be contracted to less than that.
    Just like that. That's the magic trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In that time alone, Peter has slept with 6 women and that does make it, for a normal average person exceptional. Especially in comparison to Randy Robertson (who's supposed to be even less lucky in love than Peter as pet Spencer's ASM #27-28 in Peter's narration), Flash Thompson and Harry.
    Also in that span of time, Aunt May fell in love, got married and watched her new husband die. Peter lost his job, got a new job, had his body stolen by a villain who earned a doctorate and set up a company, became a worldwide success, lost it all, got a new job, lost his job, got a new job. J Jonah Jameson had a heart attack, lost his job, had his estranged father come back into his life, became mayor of NYC, saw his father get married, resigned as mayor, got a job in television, watched his father die, lost his job in television.

    It's all implausible.

    Having sex with four different people is the most plausible part of it.

  11. #176
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    It would be fun if Mary Jane got a new boyfriend and ended up marrying him.
    I wonder what Pedro's been up to :P?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The Spider-Man of Brand New Day wasn't a manchild who lives in his parents basement (figuartively) for the rest of his life.
    His maturity level definitely took a nosedive compared to how he had been portrayed before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    They can. Spider-Man can be whatever Marvel wants him to be. Currently, they want him to be a young person finding his way in the world. They feel that is better conveyed if he is unmarried.
    That doesn't really feel like how Spencer and Taylor are writing him at least. Heck, canonically he's supposed to be in his late 20's.

    I think that's Miles' thing now.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I haven't argued any point about ASM 1 or 29 not having allusions to a previous context. Although even if you think the allusion to the marriage is immensely important, these are still stories that do require Peter and MJ to not to be married. These would actually be stories that require One More Day to exist (it is perfectly fine to think the tradeoff is a poor one.)

    If the context were different, these would remain decent stories. If the published Spider-Man context reflected the post-OMD continuity (IE- if as far as readers knew Spider-Man had never been married, although he and MJ had come close at some point) #1 and #29 would still be good issues in Petr and MJ's relationships.


    The ending of ASM #29 was that Peter wanted to give MJ a wedding ring but couldn't because he was busy as Spider-Man. Is there any kind of equivalent to that scene that would work if he and MJ are already married?
    the ending of spider-man 75.

    also the ending of asm 29 depends on the marriage having already taken place.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 09-13-2019 at 02:39 PM.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That doesn't really feel like how Spencer and Taylor are writing him at least. Heck, canonically he's supposed to be in his late 20's.

    I think that's Miles' thing now.
    That's the reasoning the editors at Marvel gave. Your mileage may vary on whether they're accomplishing that goal. Other readers may agree or disagree with you. There's nothing I can do about any of this.

  14. #179
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The ending of ASM #29 was that Peter wanted to give MJ a wedding ring but couldn't because he was busy as Spider-Man.
    Which by itself is redundant. There have been before several instances like that. Peter contemplated proposing to Betty Brant in the L-D run, and to Gwen later on, and he very nearly did so in ASM #99 mentally telling himself to spit it out but being interrupted from doing so. In the context of OMD-OMIT, Peter knows for a fact that Mary Jane said yes the last time he proposed to her and that marriage didn't go through because he stood her up.

    The emotion of that scene of the entire issue is flat if it was just about Peter not being able to spell out a proposal. The emotion and the special sense of loss is that there was a moment where Peter did say it, it did work out and lasted for a long while. But that got taken away through no fault of his own.

    Is there any kind of equivalent to that scene that would work if he and MJ are already married?
    The Life and Death of Spiders, where Peter misses a chance to meet MJ in New York because he lost time in the Astral Plane.

  15. #180
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Spider-Man couldn't possibly have experienced all of those adventures in a span of just 10-15 years,
    The point is you have to accept that he did experience all that. The continuity matters. And in the case of Spider-Man, a title that has been consistent and had many defining runs, you can't downplay or ignore stuff like for instance you can skip and paper over the 100+ issues between Lee-Kirby and Byrne Fantastic Four, or in the case of X-Men, the Pre-Claremont era (which Hickman is currently doing, since the entire X-Men continuity as per HoX/PoX takes place over 10 of the 14 years post FF shuttle).

    That's all okay, it's one of the magic tricks of comics.
    The magic trick is accepting and making believe that all those stories happened and still count. Writers (such as Dan Slott) telling readers who raise these issues to paper over it are dodging their job and asking readers to do it for them. To which I say not without pay. As fans we aren't paid to do the writer's job for them. It's the job of writers to do the heavy lifting of verisimilitude and conviction.

    Also in that span of time, Aunt May fell in love, got married and watched her new husband die.
    Since Mr. Aunt May II was a worthless character, it's easy to forget and ignore him.

    Peter lost his job, got a new job,
    Which he did before and will do again. Peter doesn't have a resume gap which real people suffer from...lucky man.

    He had his body stolen by a villain who earned a doctorate and set up a company,
    Which when Otto eventually relapses to villainy will also be downplayed to a couple of months at best.

    J Jonah Jameson had a heart attack, lost his job,...
    The most important thing that happened to Jameson in that time was his wife's death. Just refer to that, and him learning Peter's identity and becoming allies with Spider-Man, and downplay the rest.

    Having sex with four different people is the most plausible part of it.
    Not for a character who isn't supposed to be doing that.

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