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  1. #211
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Personally, I think the obsession with One More Day has been one of the main things driving me away from talking with other Spider-Fans. Why? Because it's all people think about. I get it, but still. This has gone from being justified anger to an unhealthy obsession. Even people who hated The Last Jedi are somewhat gone two years later. Why can't we all do the same? Just because they won't repeal it? Reverse it? Seriously. It's incredibly strange.
    The only way you allegory works is if say Vader made a deal with a celestial being which negated his fall to the Dark Side so he stayed a Jedi Knight. While tragic Darth Vader being a bad guy is fundamental to the plot of Star Wars and such a retcon would drastically change both his character and the overall narrative.

    Edit - While I feel your pain OMD is like the elephant in the room which can never be fully ignored. It'll always be there unless it is somehow officially addressed.
    Last edited by Celgress; 09-14-2019 at 10:01 AM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  2. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Personally, I think the obsession with One More Day has been one of the main things driving me away from talking with other Spider-Fans. Why? Because it's all people think about. I get it, but still. This has gone from being justified anger to an unhealthy obsession. Even people who hated The Last Jedi are somewhat gone two years later. Why can't we all do the same? Just because they won't repeal it? Reverse it? Seriously. It's incredibly strange.
    The Last Jedi situation is a bit different since a new movie is going to be coming out that will resolve the story one way or the other, so there is a wait and see approach for critics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Steranko famously snuck in an implication that Fury had sex with the countess character in his run. That was pretty risque for the time because Marvel and Lee certainly did want to play ball within the codes of that time.

    On the other hand Lee wrote Tony Stark as a ladies man in that era, so it's not like he was all that prudish.

    Chris Claremont was the writer who made Marvel a fairly sexy place. Followed by Frank Miller.

    Marc Guggenheim said in a podcast (http://amazingspidertalk.com/2016/06...rc-guggenheim/) with Spider-Talk that the Brand New Day team tried to go to a more PG-13 place and he said that they were pushing the edge on stuff and doing things that wouldn't fly a decade later. So the sleaziness of the BND era was an intentional choice.
    With the Steranko Fury issues, one of the "fixes" was more risque. A phone that was off the hook was swapped with a phone that was ringing, and ignored.

    https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-legends-revealed-219/

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Which by itself is redundant. There have been before several instances like that. Peter contemplated proposing to Betty Brant in the L-D run, and to Gwen later on, and he very nearly did so in ASM #99 mentally telling himself to spit it out but being interrupted from doing so. In the context of OMD-OMIT, Peter knows for a fact that Mary Jane said yes the last time he proposed to her and that marriage didn't go through because he stood her up.

    The emotion of that scene of the entire issue is flat if it was just about Peter not being able to spell out a proposal. The emotion and the special sense of loss is that there was a moment where Peter did say it, it did work out and lasted for a long while. But that got taken away through no fault of his own.



    The Life and Death of Spiders, where Peter misses a chance to meet MJ in New York because he lost time in the Astral Plane.
    The emotions of the scene work for someone unfamiliar with One More Day who just saw a guy lose out at something wonderful.

    It's also different from scenes with Betty and Gwen for reasons to do with execution and Peter & MJ's relationship. 18 year old Peter deciding he has to propose to Betty isn't something readers should always think is a good idea.

  3. #213
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    You know guys, I think that I'd be more agreeable towards Peter and Mary not being married if I didn't find the reasons for them staying apart as... well, disagreeable. I suppose Peter resorting to dealing with Mephisto doesn't help with my outlook on that either. Ah well.
    If they had at least tried to write a good story around their harebrained scheme that might be something. Instead they just said here's the reasons accept them and it's not our fault that the story sucks or words to that effect. The idea being that people would be angry regardless and there would be a backlash. Well yes there would be, but there's a degree to that. People might have had issues with Gwen Stacy dying but they got a great story in the bargain, and the backlash which lasted a year or two entirely faded by the time Conway wrote his last issue with many people agreeing that it was a good story. The reasons for that is Conway wrote a great story and executed his ideas well. If it was done poorly, like say Alexandra DeWitt being literally stuffed inside a fridge by Major Force, it would have remained an outrage.

    If you want to do a big controversial move, whether it's say ending the infinite multiverse of the DC Universe (COIE), doing a story where Barbara Gordon gets crippled (The Killing Joke), or saying that a number of characters we had known were Skrulls (Secret Invasion) if you want to sell that concept, you damn well better give your best.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Even people who hated The Last Jedi are somewhat gone two years later.
    Not sure if the backlash to TLJ which included racist and sexist people and so on, ought to be put in the same boat as OMD which is fundamentally opposed to the sexist and adolescent conception of marriage that Quesada and others want people to accept, in addition to the dog-whistle sexism that was there in BND.

    More than that, while I am not a big fan of The Last Jedi...it's certainly an accomplished work, with solid craft, excellent character bits, decent writing and visual beauty. OMD has none of those things.

    The backlash over OMD is more closely related to the sh-tty finale of GOT. The hot anger and outrage and the laughing stock it made of the showrunners is quite reminiscent of that. Though got to give credit to Quesada, he did interviews after OMD and OMIT and after that talking about it, while the showrunners are holed up somewhere in a hidey hole. Quesada for all his flaws is not a coward, I'll give him that.

    Why can't we all do the same? Just because they won't repeal it?
    Speaking personally, I did try and get over OMD. But anytime I tried, the anger comes back fresh as a daisy. The anger that OMD provoked in the fandom is unusual because it's just as hot today as it was the day it came out. That's not the problem of the fandom, it's the problem of the story and Marvel.

    At the end of the day it's not the job of fans to do Marvel's job for themselves. We don't get paid money to be nice to Marvel. It's not in our interests to do so. It's up to Marvel to choose to do something about it. If not well they just have to live with that anger. I am sure it's not fun for Marvel editors and others on tumblr and wherever to constantly field opinions and questions about the marriage which they get repeatedly on multiple occasions and will continue to do so going forward.

    Even Mark Waid is regretful and bothered around the collar when he discussed OMD briefly in this podcast near the end around the end of Slott's run. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uvvdv8AZPk). It's still "the elephant in the room" and it's obvious that nothing that was done in Spider-Man since has made people get over that issue as everyone believed it would.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 09-14-2019 at 10:14 AM.

  4. #214
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    If they had at least tried to write a good story around their harebrained scheme that might be something. Instead they just said here's the reasons accept them and it's not our fault that the story sucks or words to that effect. The idea being that people would be angry regardless and there would be a backlash. Well yes there would be, but there's a degree to that. People might have had issues with Gwen Stacy dying but they got a great story in the bargain, and the backlash which lasted a year or two entirely faded by the time Conway wrote his last issue with many people agreeing that it was a good story. The reasons for that is Conway wrote a great story and executed his ideas well. If it was done poorly, like say Alexandra DeWitt being literally stuffed inside a fridge by Major Force, it would have remained an outrage.

    If you want to do a big controversial move, whether it's say ending the infinite multiverse of the DC Universe (COIE), doing a story where Barbara Gordon gets crippled (The Killing Joke), or saying that a number of characters we had known were Skrulls (Secret Invasion) if you want to sell that concept, you damn well better give your best.



    Not sure if the backlash to TLJ which included racist and sexist people and so on, ought to be put in the same boat as OMD which is fundamentally opposed to the sexist and adolescent conception of marriage that Quesada and others want people to accept, in addition to the dog-whistle sexism that was there in BND.

    More than that, while I am not a big fan of The Last Jedi...it's certainly an accomplished work, with solid craft, excellent character bits, decent writing and visual beauty. OMD has none of those things.

    The backlash over OMD is more closely related to the sh-tty finale of GOT. The hot anger and outrage and the laughing stock it made of the showrunners is quite reminiscent of that. Though got to give credit to Quesada, he did interviews after OMD and OMIT and after that talking about it, while the showrunners are holed up somewhere in a hidey hole. Quesada for all his flaws is not a coward, I'll give him that.



    Speaking personally, I did try and get over OMD. But anytime I tried, the anger comes back fresh as a daisy. The anger that OMD provoked in the fandom is unusual because it's just as hot today as it was the day it came out. That's not the problem of the fandom, it's the problem of the story and Marvel.

    At the end of the day it's not the job of fans to do Marvel's job for themselves. We don't get paid money to be nice to Marvel. It's not in our interests to do so. It's up to Marvel to choose to do something about it. If not well they just have to live with that anger. I am sure it's not fun for Marvel editors and others on tumblr and wherever to constantly field opinions and questions about the marriage which they get repeatedly on multiple occasions and will continue to do so going forward.

    Even Mark Waid is regretful and bothered around the collar when he discussed OMD briefly in this podcast near the end around the end of Slott's run. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uvvdv8AZPk). It's still "the elephant in the room" and it's obvious that nothing that was done in Spider-Man since has made people get over that issue as everyone believed it would.
    Honestly, and I'm just speaking here, that does not sound healthy to me. If the story affects you that much, to the point where it makes you angry for no other reason than just it existing, then that extends beyond Marvel's stupid decision: that extends to you. I'm sorry it makes you feel that way, I really do, but that's not a good look honestly.

    Like I said, I get it. It's the elephant in the room. But I don't know...ten years sounds like a long time to harp about an elephant.
    And like you said, it's not the fans' jobs to be nice towards Marvel. But it's also not their jobs to be cruel, mean, and downright petty towards Marvel either. If this is the direction they want to go in, while I personally don't agree with it, it does us no good to sit here and be angry about it. Otherwise, we'll never enjoy the stories that are/have been/could be well-told with the web-slinger.
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  5. #215
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Honestly, and I'm just speaking here, that does not sound healthy to me. If the story affects you that much, to the point where it makes you angry for no other reason than just it existing, then that extends beyond Marvel's stupid decision: that extends to you. I'm sorry it makes you feel that way, I really do, but that's not a good look honestly.
    I get that. I know how it looks, and all I can do is accept the consequences, which includes how decent posters here might see me. But as I said, I tried backing away once and to do that I had to drop Spider-Man completely. Take a look at my join date, I haven't been here for a year. I am not an old fan complaining about OMD for all those years. I am a fan who got miffed, walked away, came back and still felt as angry as I did. That also applies in a general trend across all message boards. I see newcomers and others coming in and complaining about OMD. OMD seems to get new haters strangely enough and increase in unpopularity.

    Basically, if I am to enjoy or engage with Spider-Man in any way, I can't do that and not hate on OMD at the same time. I don't respect Post-OMD Spider-Man as a setting. I don't respect any of the defenses given in favor it, and believe me, to quote "The Eighteenth Charm of Odin", "I've read them all every damn one of them". I have given OMD Spider-Man a fair hearing, and I am not convinced.

    Like I said, I get it. It's the elephant in the room. But I don't know...ten years sounds like a long time to harp about an elephant.
    Star Wars are angrier a lot longer than that about stuff like "Han Shots First" or Lucas and his extended editions.

    And like you said, it's not the fans' jobs to be nice towards Marvel. But it's also not their jobs to be cruel, mean, and downright petty towards Marvel either.
    Marvel is protected by lawyers and Disney. Quesada has a salary in the multi-digits, I doubt he cares what people do for free. Quesada has many flaws but as I said he's no coward. He's fairly thick skinned.

    Otherwise, we'll never enjoy the stories that are/have been/could be well-to.
    As Chip Zdarsky said in that Panel x Panel interview, the question of whether Spider-Man should grow up has become the defining issue for the character after OMD since that made what had once been a minor behind-the-scenes complaint into something public. Peter Parker is defined now by an inability to grow when that wasn't the case with the character before.

    There are many things wrong with OMD quite outside of the issue itself. But far and away the biggest one is that it became impossible to understand and accept Spider-Man at face value after that. People not only saw how the sausage was made but they saw chef spit into it. I didn't know anything about behind the scenes stuff about Spider-Man before I read OMD but after that it became all there was to know. Before that, Marvel justified everything on the logic of the story and character.

  6. #216
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I get that. I know how it looks, and all I can do is accept the consequences, which includes how decent posters here might see me. But as I said, I tried backing away once and to do that I had to drop Spider-Man completely. Take a look at my join date, I haven't been here for a year. I am not an old fan complaining about OMD for all those years. I am a fan who got miffed, walked away, came back and still felt as angry as I did. That also applies in a general trend across all message boards. I see newcomers and others coming in and complaining about OMD. OMD seems to get new haters strangely enough and increase in unpopularity.

    Basically, if I am to enjoy or engage with Spider-Man in any way, I can't do that and not hate on OMD at the same time. I don't respect Post-OMD Spider-Man as a setting. I don't respect any of the defenses given in favor it, and believe me, to quote "The Eighteenth Charm of Odin", "I've read them all every damn one of them". I have given OMD Spider-Man a fair hearing, and I am not convinced.
    Why does this sound mildly...threatening?

    Marvel is protected by lawyers and Disney. Quesada has a salary in the multi-digits, I doubt he cares what people do for free. Quesada has many flaws but as I said he's no coward. He's fairly thick skinned.
    They're still human beings, with thoughts and feelings and opinions. Doesn't justify any harassment.

    As Chip Zdarsky said in that Panel x Panel interview, the question of whether Spider-Man should grow up has become the defining issue for the character after OMD since that made what had once been a minor behind-the-scenes complaint into something public. Peter Parker is defined now by an inability to grow when that wasn't the case with the character before.

    There are many things wrong with OMD quite outside of the issue itself. But far and away the biggest one is that it became impossible to understand and accept Spider-Man at face value after that. People not only saw how the sausage was made but they saw chef spit into it. I didn't know anything about behind the scenes stuff about Spider-Man before I read OMD but after that it became all there was to know. Before that, Marvel justified everything on the logic of the story and character.
    In my mind, unless we are paid by Marvel, we really shouldn't be so entrenched in the day-to-day editorial happenings. I think we should just take the individual stories themselves as they are, really. Otherwise, we'll drive ourselves crazy!
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  7. #217
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Why does this sound mildly...threatening?
    I guess it's the judicial metaphor where I cast myself as the hypothetical judge hearing the case of OMD and its defenders. It certainly wasn't intended as one.

    Doesn't justify any harassment.
    Harassment is a specific legal concept. It doesn't involve harping or complaining about a post online. Quesada and others are public figures, and it's within the rights of anyone to judge and criticize their work and actions.

    I agree that nothing justifies harassment, I just don't see how people complaining about OMD and so on is harassment in any real sense.

    Harassment is stuff like chasing Kelly Marie Tran off Instagram or something like that. I don't get this attitude where people think all fan backlashes are the same. There's a difference between backlashes against TLJ or stuff like Jason Aaron got for Jane Thor and backlash that is rooted entirely in creative direction and execution like with OMD or the Game of Thrones finale where fan outrage and anger is directed to a worthy and deserving target.

  8. #218
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I guess it's the judicial metaphor where I cast myself as the hypothetical judge hearing the case of OMD and its defenders. It certainly wasn't intended as one.



    Harassment is a specific legal concept. It doesn't involve harping or complaining about a post online. Quesada and others are public figures, and it's within the rights of anyone to judge and criticize their work and actions.

    I agree that nothing justifies harassment, I just don't see how people complaining about OMD and so on is harassment in any real sense.

    Harassment is stuff like chasing Kelly Marie Tran off Instagram or something like that. I don't get this attitude where people think all fan backlashes are the same. There's a difference between backlashes against TLJ or stuff like Jason Aaron got for Jane Thor and backlash that is rooted entirely in creative direction and execution like with OMD or the Game of Thrones finale where fan outrage and anger is directed to a worthy and deserving target.
    The attitude comes from fans appointing themselves as the guardians of a certain IP, like no one else knows or understands this IP like the fans do, and constantly bash others for their lack of understanding an IP. That's what I mean by harassment. No, it's not direct threats, but it's gatekeeping, plain and simple. In the case of OMD, this has been going on for ten years, to the point where potential new readers that Marvel wanted can't even enjoy the stories because the fanbase is constantly keeping them away with their complaints. I got it when it was the year of the story, that made sense. But we're ten closing in on eleven years later past this story, and people have yet to not only stop talking about it, but keep devolving every comment thread, every single story topic into one of three categories:

    "Will Peter and MJ's marriage matter/be reinstated/be remembered"
    "Will Peter actually grow up/why he shouldn't grow up"
    "Will Peter finally overcome Mephisto and beat him up/reject his offer/remember the deal"

    Not to mention other things like "should Aunt May die/live" or "should Peter have a kid." These types of arguments are becoming more and more trite and played out because we know the answer to them already, and it's honestly this: whatever Marvel decides. Why? Because it's their character. They can do whatever they want with him. We don't own him, and judging by people's behavior over the last ten years, we definitely shouldn't. That's where the harassment part comes in: claiming ownership over a character, bashing the storytellers over said character (even ones who had nothing to do with OMD), bringing the mood down for everyone else, and being killjoys when it comes to new Spider-Man content. It's not harassment in the more toxic sense, but it's just as bad when looking at the long-term effects.
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  9. #219
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Personally, I think the obsession with One More Day has been one of the main things driving me away from talking with other Spider-Fans. Why? Because it's all people think about. I get it, but still. This has gone from being justified anger to an unhealthy obsession. Even people who hated The Last Jedi are somewhat gone two years later. Why can't we all do the same? Just because they won't repeal it? Reverse it? Seriously. It's incredibly strange.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
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  10. #220
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    The attitude comes from fans appointing themselves as the guardians of a certain IP, like no one else knows or understands this IP like the fans do, and constantly bash others for their lack of understanding an IP. That's what I mean by harassment. No, it's not direct threats, but it's gatekeeping, plain and simple. In the case of OMD, this has been going on for ten years, to the point where potential new readers that Marvel wanted can't even enjoy the stories because the fanbase is constantly keeping them away with their complaints. I got it when it was the year of the story, that made sense. But we're ten closing in on eleven years later past this story, and people have yet to not only stop talking about it, but keep devolving every comment thread, every single story topic into one of three categories:

    "Will Peter and MJ's marriage matter/be reinstated/be remembered"
    "Will Peter actually grow up/why he shouldn't grow up"
    "Will Peter finally overcome Mephisto and beat him up/reject his offer/remember the deal"

    Not to mention other things like "should Aunt May die/live" or "should Peter have a kid." These types of arguments are becoming more and more trite and played out because we know the answer to them already, and it's honestly this: whatever Marvel decides. Why? Because it's their character. They can do whatever they want with him. We don't own him, and judging by people's behavior over the last ten years, we definitely shouldn't. That's where the harassment part comes in: claiming ownership over a character, bashing the storytellers over said character (even ones who had nothing to do with OMD), bringing the mood down for everyone else, and being killjoys when it comes to new Spider-Man content. It's not harassment in the more toxic sense, but it's just as bad when looking at the long-term effects.
    I doubt very much that online debates about OMD is a barrier of entry for new readers. If that was the case then it’s up to Marvel to fix that.

    And as far as gatekeeping goes there isn’t a bigger one than than Joey Q himself. He, Brevoort and other apparatchiks were telling readers that the married Spider-Man wasn’t the real Spider-Man and people who liked it weren’t true fans. That was the impression that BND sold.

    I get people being tired of talking about it but I don’t get trying to make people complaining about a mess as being the same or worse than the people who made the mess.

  11. #221
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Okay I admit I was wrong there. :P
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  12. #222
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I doubt very much that online debates about OMD is a barrier of entry for new readers. If that was the case then it’s up to Marvel to fix that.

    And as far as gatekeeping goes there isn’t a bigger one than than Joey Q himself. He, Brevoort and other apparatchiks were telling readers that the married Spider-Man wasn’t the real Spider-Man and people who liked it weren’t true fans. That was the impression that BND sold.

    I get people being tired of talking about it but I don’t get trying to make people complaining about a mess as being the same or worse than the people who made the mess.
    Then it seems like you and I are at an impasse. I don't see the point in going forward if you're unable to see your complicity in this spiraling situation.
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  13. #223
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Honestly, and I'm just speaking here, that does not sound healthy to me. If the story affects you that much, to the point where it makes you angry for no other reason than just it existing, then that extends beyond Marvel's stupid decision: that extends to you. I'm sorry it makes you feel that way, I really do, but that's not a good look honestly.

    Like I said, I get it. It's the elephant in the room. But I don't know...ten years sounds like a long time to harp about an elephant.
    And like you said, it's not the fans' jobs to be nice towards Marvel. But it's also not their jobs to be cruel, mean, and downright petty towards Marvel either. If this is the direction they want to go in, while I personally don't agree with it, it does us no good to sit here and be angry about it. Otherwise, we'll never enjoy the stories that are/have been/could be well-told with the web-slinger.
    Fans getting unreasonable angry and grudge-heavy is perhaps best described as another matter entirely. If they’re being out of line, then it’s best to report them or ignore them entirely.

  14. #224
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Ignore this.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Then it seems like you and I are at an impasse. I don't see the point in going forward if you're unable to see your complicity in this spiraling situation.


    omd/omit will always be controversial because it is a story in which the hero is tricked by the devil and loses and isn’t aware he lost. it goes against everything superheroes are supposed to stand for and makes peter into mephisto’s patsy.

    imagine if marvel never resolved hydra-cap and 10 years later we are still reading about nazi steve rogers.

    that is why people will still continue to talk about omd.

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