Alright, alright - DCEU Supes versus MCU Captain Marvel

[Pendaran]

I've heard that Chris Hemsworth himself did most of the pushing for a goofier weirder Thor. He was bored playing the character after Thor 2. Hence why Ragnarok was sooo much goofier. Awesome movie, just different.

Hey, Ragnarok was great. But IW/Endgame for instance kinda hardcore ignored and undid a whole lot of it, character development and arc wise.

[The Arbiter]

Hey, Ragnarok was great. But IW/Endgame for instance kinda hardcore ignored and undid a whole lot of it, character development and arc wise.

That's true. Chris' proclivity towards acting in a comedic fashion shouldn't have undone the greater themes Ragnarok was touting.

[rhyvurg]

What's being regarded as his best strength feat here?

Specifically I was referring to him escaping Surter's chains at the start of Ragnarok, assuming they're of similar strength to modern extra-strong chains (and considering Surtur was relying on them to restrain an Asgardian and his pet rocket dragon I'd say that's an entirely safe if probably overly conservative assumption) and looking at how easily Thor snapped those chains that were wrapped around his body several times, that's well over 300 tons of force, nearly ten times Carol's best.

Having watched Endgame, nothing came even close to that from him that I could see, so, yeah.

You can't go by Endgame for Thor at all, not after how many times they pointed out he was out of shape.

1: Yes, I am fine giving the full implications of that sub feat to Aquaman as we have happily done so in his comic book medium. Yes I believe Superman stopping him despite that feat is legit based on presentation.

That's fine with me, by default I try to err on the lower side of things so I didn't want to credit Arthur with the full weight of the sub considering subs are designed to surface anyway and you can't say someone is strong just because they have movement thrust (example, the mutant Cannonball). A nuclear sub can weigh, what, around 18,000 tons? And Superman held off Arthur with one had and zero strain. So not only is Clark faster than her, he's exponentially stronger.

2: I'll let the people who were arguing for the barrier theory speak here. But I will point out that he was /not/ in fact harming her prior to the head butt. Just tossed her iirc. She was fine until the power stone punch.

Considering he didn't actually take a swing at her until he used the stone anyway, just tossed her away once, that means nothing. You can't say "he didn't hurt her before either" when he...wasn't hitting her in the first place.

3: I'm pointing out the logical flaws and implications associated with you trying to compartmentalize strength feats as a way to discredit them. You say Carol's "flight thrust" was a factor to catching the missile and we would have "no idea if her feet were planted on the floor". It's a strength feat. Otherwise her arms would have bent under the pressures of the opposing "flight thrusts" and she would have smacked her face into the missile.

I believe her flight thrust was a factor in pushing the missile, yes. Because logically speaking it can't not have an effect. It's no different than trying to push something with just your arms, then leaning into it and pushing with your legs as well.

Me mentioning Superman and Iron Man in comics is me taking your "flight thrust" argument to its darkest point. I can say that Superman moving the moon is just a feat of his power of flight and not strength. I can say Iron Man's rocket boots are class 80 but not his arms. After all, their greatest feats of strength were done while flying.

Okay I can see your logic, but recent events have somewhat dulled your point, considering Superman has shattered an entire planet by jumping off it really hard when he explicitly had no flight power. How much flight thrust or similar abilities has an effect on such feats is open for debate, but you can't say it's a non factor.

[Captain Morgan]

Thrust is irrelevant for Carol though. She projects the same energy to fly, punch things, and shoot stuff. If she can launch herself with that amount of force, she can almost certainly hit with it as well.

Also, I call shenanigans on snapping some chains being better than catching an enormous missile falling from space.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Thrust is irrelevant for Carol though. She projects the same energy to fly, punch things, and shoot stuff. If she can launch herself with that amount of force, she can almost certainly hit with it as well.

Also, I call shenanigans on snapping some chains being better than catching an enormous missile falling from space.

Yea, I mean Morpheus broke chains too.

[The Arbiter]

That's fine with me, by default I try to err on the lower side of things so I didn't want to credit Arthur with the full weight of the sub considering subs are designed to surface anyway and you can't say someone is strong just because they have movement thrust (example, the mutant Cannonball). A nuclear sub can weigh, what, around 18,000 tons? And Superman held off Arthur with one had and zero strain. So not only is Clark faster than her, he's exponentially stronger.

Some people have estimated the weight of the sub + the water and friction at nearly 500k tons.
A sub is designed to surface by activating its specific surfacing procedures. Getting forced straight upwards is not that.

Out of curiosity, why ARE you saying "fine by me" when your own argument is suggesting it's not Arthur's arms but just his "swim thrust" enabling him to do the feat? Why accept that suddenly but fight Carol's stuff so hard?

Considering he didn't actually take a swing at her until he used the stone anyway, just tossed her away once, that means nothing. You can't say "he didn't hurt her before either" when he...wasn't hitting her in the first place.

Except for the headbutt of course. I personally dont believe in this whole thought activated barrier thing. It was presented as her just being that tough. Even if It IS a shield, she is still covered in an aura in like 90% of her meaningful showings.

I believe her flight thrust was a factor in pushing the missile, yes. Because logically speaking it can't not have an effect. It's no different than trying to push something with just your arms, then leaning into it and pushing with your legs as well.

When she caught the missile, her arms didn't bend and the missile didn't smack into her face. So her arms are well in excess of the two opposing thrusts anyways. They then spend a moment locked together until she shoves the 300 ton missile flying upwards into the others (despite its thrusters still firing!) with... her arms. It's a strength feat. Thrust this and thrust that arguments bog us down in semantics.

Okay I can see your logic, but recent events have somewhat dulled your point, considering Superman has shattered an entire planet by jumping off it really hard when he explicitly had no flight power. How much flight thrust or similar abilities has an effect on such feats is open for debate, but you can't say it's a non factor.

I can certainly say it's a non factor. Shattering the planet with a jump is fine. He's exerting class 100 force upon it. Flying through the air does not.

Flight muscles are just muscles. He can push around or rough up celestial bodies via either method - raw jump or flight power - and has done it both ways throughout multiple incarnations. You are opening up a can of worms that can create nasty but ultimately useless arguments across the board and through various mediums.

[big_adventure]

Some people have estimated the weight of the sub + the water and friction at nearly 500k tons.
A sub is designed to surface by activating its specific surfacing procedures. Getting forced straight upwards is not that.

Not jumping on anything other than this grenade: Arthur does NOT push the sub straight up. (see below for clarification, mea culpa) It's already moving in level cruise forward, he adds some upward momentum. And again, subs are designed to cut through the water, he'd not lifting the column... which would fall off to the sides anyway. And again, subs in level cruise are neutrally bouyant: he'd have to overcome the mass, definitely, but not the weight.

Just went and rewatched the scene. The sub starts moving up. Arthur isn't holding it with his arms, he'd bracing it with his shoulders for most of the ride. I still have no idea where the thrust comes from as he's barely kicking his legs. If this were 500k tons of force, it'd be making more than a tiny dimple in the bottom of the sub. That said, while it starts out simply redirecting the sub, by the end the sub is going basically straight up. Not crazy fast, but it's a pretty silly feat. It's still nothing even remotely like 500K tons. Remember: neutral bouyancy, water falls out of the way and off the top of the sub as it moves, friction is your primary limiter. Water has a lot of that, but he's not moving it THAT fast. I'd guess he's probably generating in the range of 20K to 30K KW of power.

[The Arbiter]

Not jumping on anything other than this grenade: Arthur does NOT push the sub straight up. (see below for clarification, mea culpa) It's already moving in level cruise forward, he adds some upward momentum. And again, subs are designed to cut through the water, he'd not lifting the column... which would fall off to the sides anyway. And again, subs in level cruise are neutrally bouyant: he'd have to overcome the mass, definitely, but not the weight.

Just went and rewatched the scene. The sub starts moving up. Arthur isn't holding it with his arms, he'd bracing it with his shoulders for most of the ride. I still have no idea where the thrust comes from as he's barely kicking his legs. If this were 500k tons of force, it'd be making more than a tiny dimple in the bottom of the sub. That said, while it starts out simply redirecting the sub, by the end the sub is going basically straight up. Not crazy fast, but it's a pretty silly feat. It's still nothing even remotely like 500K tons. Remember: neutral bouyancy, water falls out of the way and off the top of the sub as it moves, friction is your primary limiter. Water has a lot of that, but he's not moving it THAT fast. I'd guess he's probably generating in the range of 20K to 30K KW of power.

He hits the subs rotor at the beggining. Stopping it and the subs momentum. We later get a clear shot of the rotor not moving for confirmation.

https://youtu.be/jzKV9XwG3gs
That happens at 2:53.
At 3:09 he goes below and forces it STRAIGHT up. Not at an angle and not, as shown, with its own momentum.

Fluid dynamics would disagree with your assessment. Water obviously DOES push off to the side but not right away. It struggles to displace same as how atmosphere super compresses during shuttle reentry in front of a space shuttle.

Edit: Ah, thank God we can happily argue away again. I was starting to worry. :P

[big_adventure]

He hits the subs rotor at the beggining. Stopping it and the subs momentum. We later get a clear shot of the rotor not moving for confirmation.

https://youtu.be/jzKV9XwG3gs
That happens at 2:53.
At 3:09 he goes below and forces it STRAIGHT up. Not at an angle and not, as shown, with its own momentum.

Fluid dynamics would disagree with your assessment. Water obviously DOES push off to the side but not right away. It struggles to displace same as how atmosphere super compresses during shuttle reentry in front of a space shuttle.

Edit: Ah, thank God we can happily argue away again. I was starting to worry. :P

And if he started pushing it up at 300 kmh or something, sure, he'd be lifting a significant amount of water, but he doesn't. It starts moving up at like... 1kmh, and accelerates from there to... maybe 10 or 15 over time. Note: using kmh for more global understanding, submarines travel in knots, but most people don't know how to convert that. For it to be lifting 500k tons, he would have to push a column of water the shape of the sub and, I dunno, a few hundred or a thousand feet high, out of the water, into the air, and balance it over the sub. We clearly see that this is NOT what happens. The surface barely balloons, because the water has all moved out of the way to the sides of the nicely hydro-dynamically-efficient sub-shape.

Now, a sub like that isn't going more than a couple hundred meters below the surface. The max before the stupid thing starts taking damage is less than 300 meters. If we assume it's cruising along at, say, 150m depth, a typical cruising depth, we can redo the calcs like a non-stupid person.

Even if the sub was squared on top and had a forcefield around the column of water collecting ALL of the water from the top of the sub to the surface, and if Aquaman lifted the sub and ALL of the column of 150 meters of water from the top of the sub, it wouldn't be close to 500k tons.

An Akula class sub is 110 meters long and 13 meters wide at the longest and widest points. If it was, as we say, squared off, and had a forcefield making sure that Arty had to lift the entire 150m high column of water completely, we get this: 110 x 13 x 150 = 214k tons. The displacement of the sub at neutral bouancy under water (the actual weight of the sub dry is 8k tons, but they fill tanks with water to get bouyancy neutral) is 13k tons. So if something that clearly didn't happen at all (lifting that massive column of water) we'd be talking about under 230k tons. Period.

But again, that's not what happens with a sub. You don't lift much of the water mass at all, instead you battle friction, and that's SIGNIFICANTLY less. So again, it's maybe, MAYBE a 10K ton kind of thing, and again, it's not a lifting feat, it's a swimming force feat. He plants his shoulders on the thing and pushes up as he swims into the thing. He once or twice, while pushing it up, stretches his arms slightly up, but always plants it back on his shoulders. He accelerates it, by continuing to apply that force. But nothing about that scene makes me thing that AC can lift an Akula class sub on land. It's impressive as all hell, but nothing close to lifting the thing physically. I've now watched and rewatched it.

[The Drunkard Kid]

rhyvurg, weren't you previously arguing that Carol flying through the explosions of those missiles after she caught one *and threw it back at the others* couldn't possibly be interpreted as her tanking an explosion comparable to any kind of nuclear detonation due to them calling it some sort of kinetic weapon?

Which would mean that she was tracking, intercepting, and holding (without arms bending) something that was traveling fast enough to create nuclear-level impact (at least), increased by her own comparable acceleration? And then she not only stopped it while it was still rocket propelling itself down towards her, but also threw it hard and fast enough to not only intercept the same type of kinetic missiles that had been fired at almost the same exact time as the first missile, but also hard and fast enough to overwhelm their own propulsion, with enough oomph left over to shatter missiles that were previously shown to maintain structural integrity well enough to dig straight into the ground when impacting it at full force.

Anyone feel like doing the speed and strength calculations needed to intercept and overpower a hypothetical Armageddon?

[big_adventure]

Brie Larson is 5'7", the missile is roughly ten times her height based on the size of her glow in that very shot, and this is before she amped her energy to push the missile, so her aura is pretty tight around her as per it's usual depiction. That means the missile is just under 56 feet long, which yes is comparable to a modern ICBM, specifically an LGM-30 Minuteman III, so I was mistaken there, but unfortunately those missiles weigh in at a mere 39 tons, meaning Superman's ship drag and casually holding off sub-lifting Aquaman means he's exponentially stronger than she is. And since these missiles are for bombardment, not escaping a gravity well, you can't claim she's fighting the same level of thrust.

EDIT: This also means Thor is about ten times stronger than she is too, since his best physical feat is well over 300 tons.

Her glowy aura in the shot is MUCH MUCH longer than her actual body. That missile is a HELL OF A LOT longer than 56 feet long. And it's some kind of kinetic planetary bombardment thing, and she catches it and chucks it back AGAINST ITS THRUST. It's a stupidly impressive feat, and backed up nicely by her being physically equal to or stronger than Thanos.