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  1. #61
    Mighty Member rhyvurg's Avatar
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    After subsequent viewings of Endgame, I think Steve must have gotten a stat boost, it's the only explanation. When he used the hammer, he hit Thanos with a flying knee in the chest and Thanos felt it. Keep in mind Thanos was just slightly stronger than FatThor at the time. When Thanos caught Stormbreaker and tried to force it into Thor's chest, they both had both hands on the axe and Thanos was very slowly succeeding. That means he's physically stronger than FatThor, but not by fucking much (meaning FitThor must be physically stronger than Thanos BTW). For Cap to hit someone like that and make them feel it, which he did, there is no way the hammer didn't boost him. Especially considering at the opening of the brawl Thanos hit Cap and sent him flying, yet after he got the hammer Cap was on the ground and Thanos straight up punched him in the chest, clearly putting effort into it, and Cap was able to get up. If Thanos was even half as strong as Thor that should have killed Cap. I don't think there's any doubt the hammer boosted him, it's literally the only explanation.

    As for Wonder Woman, she's shown she can handle lightning but the hammer is much less concentrated than what Ares had. When Cap called down the bolt on Thanos when he was on the ground it was hitting him all over, his entire body. Diana's bracers can't absorb lightning that's not actually hitting them. She'd get some of it, but not all. And with speed equalized and Cap's superior weapons and combat experience, he should take this fight, 7/10.
    Last edited by rhyvurg; 05-20-2019 at 04:07 PM.
    "Money and muscle, thatís what I want; to be able to do any damned thing I want and get away with it. Money wonít do that altogether, because if a man is a weakling, all the money in the world wonít enable him to soak an enemy himself; on the other hand, unless he has money he may not be able to get away with it."
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  2. #62
    Smiles but not on command Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhyvurg View Post
    After subsequent viewings of Endgame, I think Steve must have gotten a stat boost, it's the only explanation. When he used the hammer, he hit Thanos with a flying knee in the chest and Thanos felt it. Keep in mind Thanos was just slightly stronger than FatThor at the time. When Thanos caught Stormbreaker and tried to force it into Thor's chest, they both had both hands on the axe and Thanos was very slowly succeeding. That means he's physically stronger than FatThor, but not by fucking much (meaning FitThor must be physically stronger than Thanos BTW). For Cap to hit someone like that and make them feel it, which he did, there is no way the hammer didn't boost him. Especially considering at the opening of the brawl Thanos hit Cap and sent him flying, yet after he got the hammer Cap was on the ground and Thanos straight up punched him in the chest, clearly putting effort into it, and Cap was able to get up. If Thanos was even half as strong as Thor that should have killed Cap. I don't think there's any doubt the hammer boosted him, it's literally the only explanation.

    As for Wonder Woman, she's shown she can handle lightning but the hammer is much less concentrated than what Ares had. When Cap called down the bolt on Thanos when he was on the ground it was hitting him all over, his entire body. Diana's bracers can't absorb lightning that's not actually hitting them. She'd get some of it, but not all. And with speed equalized and Cap's superior weapons and combat experience, he should take this fight, 7/10.
    I rewatched the fight scenes with Ares. She blocks stuff like the "daggers" that are spread out yet when she crosses the bracelets, it forms a field of energy that blocks them all. When Ares launches his final lightning attack, she again crosses them. The lightning is clearly more than just right at the bracelets. It's as if the bracelets are pulling it in and absorbing it.

    The only real question here is the speed equalized thing that makes this debatable. I think the general assumption is that the faster person is reduced to the speed of the slower person. If so, she may not be able to move fast enough to block lightning. If he is instead accelerated to her speed or if it's somewhere between, it's more debatable. Although I think the repeated assertion that is significantly more skilled than her is highly debatable. While he was never as superhuman as she was, he still has huge strength, durability and speed advantages over most of his opponents and, like her, was skilled enough to beat opponents who outpowered him.
    "I'm not what you think I am". Higher, further, faster.

  3. #63
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    DCEU Diana hasnít really been given a chance to demonstrate her skill as a fighter yet. Most of her combat feats that I can think of are either against people way below her weight class (puny humans) or rampaging beasts (Zodoomsday, Not So Dead Man Clark). Ares is the exception but I donít think itís a large enough sample size to properly evaluate her skill in combat. We all know sheís a great warrior but I donít feel thatís had the chance to demonstrate it yet.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member rhyvurg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    DCEU Diana hasn’t really been given a chance to demonstrate her skill as a fighter yet. Most of her combat feats that I can think of are either against people way below her weight class (puny humans) or rampaging beasts (Zodoomsday, Not So Dead Man Clark). Ares is the exception but I don’t think it’s a large enough sample size to properly evaluate her skill in combat. We all know she’s a great warrior but I don’t feel that’s had the chance to demonstrate it yet.
    Supposedly she's getting another movie but until she does, all she has is her training growing up, her time in WW1, and her fights with Doomsday and Steppenwolf. She has literally no other experience in real combat, until she's shown to have DONE real combat. I don't count stopping the bombing or fighting Clark, the first took no real effort and the second she was 100% ineffective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I rewatched the fight scenes with Ares. She blocks stuff like the "daggers" that are spread out yet when she crosses the bracelets, it forms a field of energy that blocks them all. When Ares launches his final lightning attack, she again crosses them. The lightning is clearly more than just right at the bracelets. It's as if the bracelets are pulling it in and absorbing it.

    The only real question here is the speed equalized thing that makes this debatable. I think the general assumption is that the faster person is reduced to the speed of the slower person. If so, she may not be able to move fast enough to block lightning. If he is instead accelerated to her speed or if it's somewhere between, it's more debatable. Although I think the repeated assertion that is significantly more skilled than her is highly debatable. While he was never as superhuman as she was, he still has huge strength, durability and speed advantages over most of his opponents and, like her, was skilled enough to beat opponents who outpowered him.
    That is an excellent point about just how the speed is equalized, I hadn't considered that.
    "Money and muscle, thatís what I want; to be able to do any damned thing I want and get away with it. Money wonít do that altogether, because if a man is a weakling, all the money in the world wonít enable him to soak an enemy himself; on the other hand, unless he has money he may not be able to get away with it."
    Robert E. Howard

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhyvurg View Post
    After subsequent viewings of Endgame, I think Steve must have gotten a stat boost, it's the only explanation. When he used the hammer, he hit Thanos with a flying knee in the chest and Thanos felt it. Keep in mind Thanos was just slightly stronger than FatThor at the time. When Thanos caught Stormbreaker and tried to force it into Thor's chest, they both had both hands on the axe and Thanos was very slowly succeeding. That means he's physically stronger than FatThor, but not by fucking much (meaning FitThor must be physically stronger than Thanos BTW). For Cap to hit someone like that and make them feel it, which he did, there is no way the hammer didn't boost him. Especially considering at the opening of the brawl Thanos hit Cap and sent him flying, yet after he got the hammer Cap was on the ground and Thanos straight up punched him in the chest, clearly putting effort into it, and Cap was able to get up. If Thanos was even half as strong as Thor that should have killed Cap. I don't think there's any doubt the hammer boosted him, it's literally the only explanation.

    As for Wonder Woman, she's shown she can handle lightning but the hammer is much less concentrated than what Ares had. When Cap called down the bolt on Thanos when he was on the ground it was hitting him all over, his entire body. Diana's bracers can't absorb lightning that's not actually hitting them. She'd get some of it, but not all. And with speed equalized and Cap's superior weapons and combat experience, he should take this fight, 7/10.
    Hulk pushed back Thor in a direct contest of strength in Ragnarok. It was brief but decisive. He caught Thor's weapon then slowly raised it. They are very close in strength but a pissed Hulk edges it.

    Thanos pushed Hulk back on the ship in IW in much the same manner as he did to Thor in Endgame. A slow yet decisive effort. He's clearly stronger than either of them, fat or skinny.

    As for the lightning, I feel like this is a strange place to take the argument. Were the feats in question taken from a comic panel, nobody would bat an eye. But because of the medium of film we can go "See? It's slightly too wide!!" when discussing the lightning. It seems off to me. Also as another poster mentioned, it seemed almost to attract the attacking energy.

    None of this really matters because she can casually turtle through Doomsdays red lightning AoE shockwave and be pretty darn ok. Even her exposed bits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    DCEU Diana hasn’t really been given a chance to demonstrate her skill as a fighter yet. Most of her combat feats that I can think of are either against people way below her weight class (puny humans) or rampaging beasts (Zodoomsday, Not So Dead Man Clark). Ares is the exception but I don’t think it’s a large enough sample size to properly evaluate her skill in combat. We all know she’s a great warrior but I don’t feel that’s had the chance to demonstrate it yet.
    We know the Amazon's are an immortal warrior race. We see them engage is intense training complete with SLO MO BACK FLIPS lol. :P We see what they are capable of against soldiers with guns despite their lack of modern weapons.

    Diana was trained 10x harder than any other Amazon, as instructed by her mother until she was better than Antiope herself. Antiope being the greatest of amazon soldiers. We see her beating up the same Amazon's she was admiring as a child and eventually disarm Antiope. All of this was riiiiight before her powers started developing.

    She was beating Ares in most melee encounters. Dude needed his esoterics to get an edge. She was beating huge groups of soldiers from within their ranks. Kept pace with Steppenwolf. Cut off DD's arm.

    She's got some stuff.
    Last edited by The Arbiter; 05-20-2019 at 11:23 PM.
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  6. #66
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Massively more durable based on what? Also, just how close do you think Cap's durability when not boosted is to Diana's?

    Shows greater skill? Last time this came up, Captain Morgan made some excellent points in Diana's favor that iirc you ended up conceeding? Keep in mind you have also said Thor is "waaay more skilled" than Cap even with no powers. I feel like this is a way for you to further that point.

    Diana also has an unbreakable self guiding whip and an AoE generating, energy absorbing pair of bracers. She's not just sword and shield for gear.
    Cap's fighting feats have only gotten better over time, and include instantly adapting to using Mjolnir in combat and pimp-slapping Corvus Glaive. It's consistent... Cap has demonstrated fighting skill better than any human he's come in contact with, even somewhat enhanced ones like Bucky, highly skilled ones like Batroc and Crossbones, and he's on par-ish with the obviously-asterisked Loki, who is around Valkyrie and somewhat less than Thor in combat feats, and, with the combat conditions stated here, he did fairly credibly for a short time against Thanos, who is miles/kilometers/lightyears beyond anyone Diana has ever faced. Diana's combat feats just aren't that ridiculous: she's gotten her ass handed to her by Superman, and other than that, she's generally had a speed - against everyone - and strength - against everyone except Doomsday - advantage against every single foe she's faced.

    Cap is less durable than Diana, definitely. Diana's best "confirmed" feats are things like smashing through stone and having a building collapse on her. She comes out of those OK. Her bracers and shield work in some respect to mitigate damage. Cap ALSO has things of that ilk. Things like falling 40 stories to a hard concrete ground and shaking it off. Things like shaking off a repeated beating with no resistance from punches from a guy who dents 3/4 inch steel with his fists. Things like getting hammered and shot by Ultron. He's NOT as durable as she is, but he's durable as hell.

    Thor, OTOH, is significantly more durable than Diana, without counting the star feat. She has nothing at all like getting up with no real issues after extended beatings from Hulk or Kurse.

    Thor is also stronger than Diana, by a solid margin. He has stalemated Hulk for an extended period, though Hulk eventually has the edge there, it's not a huge difference, and stalemated Thanos for a while twice when fat and out of shape: again, Thanos has an edge, but it's not large. He ragdolls and stuns the Hulk in the arena BEFORE going SSJ2, and dominates Hulk when he does. Those kinds of things act in confirmation of the ring feat, which is STUPIDLY beyond anything Diana has. Her strength feats just aren't on that level.

    I'm not arguing, however, that all of Thor's feats should transfer. I simply stated that IF they do, Cap gets an edge in those areas and would therefore win. If they don't, WW probably has enough of an edge to win.

    Obviously, if Diana gets her speed, things can change, but she doesn't here.

    Frankly, it's not a good rumble, because we just don't have enough feats for Captain Hammer here to know anything approaching his limits.
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  7. #67
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhyvurg View Post
    After subsequent viewings of Endgame, I think Steve must have gotten a stat boost, it's the only explanation. When he used the hammer, he hit Thanos with a flying knee in the chest and Thanos felt it. Keep in mind Thanos was just slightly stronger than FatThor at the time. When Thanos caught Stormbreaker and tried to force it into Thor's chest, they both had both hands on the axe and Thanos was very slowly succeeding. That means he's physically stronger than FatThor, but not by fucking much (meaning FitThor must be physically stronger than Thanos BTW). For Cap to hit someone like that and make them feel it, which he did, there is no way the hammer didn't boost him. Especially considering at the opening of the brawl Thanos hit Cap and sent him flying, yet after he got the hammer Cap was on the ground and Thanos straight up punched him in the chest, clearly putting effort into it, and Cap was able to get up. If Thanos was even half as strong as Thor that should have killed Cap. I don't think there's any doubt the hammer boosted him, it's literally the only explanation.

    As for Wonder Woman, she's shown she can handle lightning but the hammer is much less concentrated than what Ares had. When Cap called down the bolt on Thanos when he was on the ground it was hitting him all over, his entire body. Diana's bracers can't absorb lightning that's not actually hitting them. She'd get some of it, but not all. And with speed equalized and Cap's superior weapons and combat experience, he should take this fight, 7/10.
    For the lightning thing, I would definitely say that Diana's bracers and powers or whatever the hell it is work to make some kind of force field. I don't see the width of the lightning being a problem really. She might not be able to get the shield up in time against someone as quick as she is, but if she can, I don't see it having an issue absorbing it. It would probably be better to summon down strikes that miss her but screw up her footing, really, because the scorched earth element combined with frontal assault combined with sneaky sucker-punching hammer would probably be enough to secure the majority.
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  8. #68
    Mighty Member rhyvurg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Hulk pushed back Thor in a direct contest of strength in Ragnarok. It was brief but decisive. He caught Thor's weapon then slowly raised it. They are very close in strength but a pissed Hulk edges it.

    Thanos pushed Hulk back on the ship in IW in much the same manner as he did to Thor in Endgame. A slow yet decisive effort. He's clearly stronger than either of them, fat or skinny.

    As for the lightning, I feel like this is a strange place to take the argument. Were the feats in question taken from a comic panel, nobody would bat an eye. But because of the medium of film we can go "See? It's slightly too wide!!" when discussing the lightning. It seems off to me. Also as another poster mentioned, it seemed almost to attract the attacking energy.

    None of this really matters because she can casually turtle through Doomsdays red lightning AoE shockwave and be pretty darn ok. Even her exposed bits.
    Hulk and Thor fought in Ragnarok before Thor reached his full power, and Marvel Studios loves to take Hulk down a peg whenever they can. And how can Thanos be stronger than FitThor, when he was only barely edging out FatThor, considering half of the dialogue about Thor in Endgame was that he wasn't what he used to be?

    The lighting wasn't slightly too wide, it was hitting Thanos literally all over: https://i.imgur.com/eWfI5E9.png
    "Money and muscle, thatís what I want; to be able to do any damned thing I want and get away with it. Money wonít do that altogether, because if a man is a weakling, all the money in the world wonít enable him to soak an enemy himself; on the other hand, unless he has money he may not be able to get away with it."
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  9. #69
    Mighty Member moonknight11's Avatar
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    Honestly I think there's very little difference between fit Thor and fat Thor.

    Thor gets his godly power from magic and seemingly self belief. Things that his conversation with his mother restored in Endgame.

    Fit Thor > Thanos > Hulk > Fit Thor (in Ragnarok) doesn't track.

    Edit: Thor's unlocked for power wasn't a strength boost but more about his lightning power.
    Last edited by moonknight11; 05-21-2019 at 03:25 AM.

  10. #70
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonknight11 View Post
    Honestly I think there's very little difference between fit Thor and fat Thor.

    Thor gets his godly power from magic and seemingly self belief. Things that his conversation with his mother restored in Endgame.

    Fit Thor > Thanos > Hulk > Fit Thor (in Ragnarok) doesn't track.

    Edit: Thor's unlocked for power wasn't a strength boost but more about his lightning power.
    I agree with most of what you say except that last one on your edit... while I basically agree, it's REALLY hard to know, as it's definitely never explicitly laid out or anything. And he did seem to hit Hulk harder post SSJ2 then he did before. Buuuut that could also absolutely be explained as "strong plus lightning" and could ALSO be explained by "Thor be stronger when he believe in Thor."

    So where I'd put it is this:

    I would say that Fit Thor is probably somewhat stronger than Fat Thor. But not by a giant amount - not by the amount such a condition change would have on a human. Fit Thor who believes in himself is probably, I dunno, 5% stronger, quicker and more agile than Fat Thor? I mean, it's really hard to imagine that he didn't lost ANYTHING living in an alcoholic coma for 5 years and filling his veins with Cheese Whiz.

    And I'd say that still places him just a bit behind Thanos: Thanos is presented as some ridiculous creature, who overpowers Hulk pretty casually. Thor, post Ragnarok, might well be physically stronger than Hulk - maybe, but Thanos gradually overpowering Thor tracks just fine with that.
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  11. #71
    Astonishing Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    So, anyone else want to see a fan edit of the end of Endgame, where instead of Peggy, Cap is seen dancing with Diana, Mjolnir resting on the table with the Lasso of Truth behind them, from a timeline where Wonder Woman didn't varnish after WW1 and ends up with another blonde American Soldier named Steve who tried to commit suicide by plane during a Works War and was played by an actor named Chris who played a flagship Marvel character?

  12. #72
    Mighty Member moonknight11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    I agree with most of what you say except that last one on your edit... while I basically agree, it's REALLY hard to know, as it's definitely never explicitly laid out or anything. And he did seem to hit Hulk harder post SSJ2 then he did before. Buuuut that could also absolutely be explained as "strong plus lightning" and could ALSO be explained by "Thor be stronger when he believe in Thor."

    So where I'd put it is this:

    I would say that Fit Thor is probably somewhat stronger than Fat Thor. But not by a giant amount - not by the amount such a condition change would have on a human. Fit Thor who believes in himself is probably, I dunno, 5% stronger, quicker and more agile than Fat Thor? I mean, it's really hard to imagine that he didn't lost ANYTHING living in an alcoholic coma for 5 years and filling his veins with Cheese Whiz.

    And I'd say that still places him just a bit behind Thanos: Thanos is presented as some ridiculous creature, who overpowers Hulk pretty casually. Thor, post Ragnarok, might well be physically stronger than Hulk - maybe, but Thanos gradually overpowering Thor tracks just fine with that.
    yeah i'd agree with you entirely, i went a bit far in my edit lol.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    I agree with most of what you say except that last one on your edit... while I basically agree, it's REALLY hard to know, as it's definitely never explicitly laid out or anything. And he did seem to hit Hulk harder post SSJ2 then he did before. Buuuut that could also absolutely be explained as "strong plus lightning" and could ALSO be explained by "Thor be stronger when he believe in Thor."

    So where I'd put it is this:

    I would say that Fit Thor is probably somewhat stronger than Fat Thor. But not by a giant amount - not by the amount such a condition change would have on a human. Fit Thor who believes in himself is probably, I dunno, 5% stronger, quicker and more agile than Fat Thor? I mean, it's really hard to imagine that he didn't lost ANYTHING living in an alcoholic coma for 5 years and filling his veins with Cheese Whiz.

    And I'd say that still places him just a bit behind Thanos: Thanos is presented as some ridiculous creature, who overpowers Hulk pretty casually. Thor, post Ragnarok, might well be physically stronger than Hulk - maybe, but Thanos gradually overpowering Thor tracks just fine with that.
    Funny thing is that Marcus and McFeely recently stated that 2014 Thanos is somewhat stronger than 2018 Thanos (which doesn't make any sense because its just a four year difference).

    2014 Thanos was a complete monster though. Him raging out and tearing up Captain America's shield just showed how strong he is.

    As per Thor, i 100% agree. Although Fat Thor was still quite strong, the Mjolnir/Stormbreaker baseball move pretty much one shot knocked out Iron Man (Thanos used Tony to protect himself from the hit). But he was completely and ridiculously out of shape in Endgame and I believe that took a toll on his physical condition.
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  14. #74
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Funny thing is that Marcus and McFeely recently stated that 2014 Thanos is somewhat stronger than 2018 Thanos (which doesn't make any sense because its just a four year difference).
    Four years and two IG uses.

    The IG uses messed up really badly. Dude was limping, barely had use of his arm and so on. He was an invalid. 2014 Thanos was him at his peak.
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  15. #75
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    How would this battle change if Wonder Woman was allowed to also use her lasso?
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